Please Stop Citing "Crossing Over" As Evidence

[TLN]

It isn't. Nothing you saw on "Crossing Over" counts as evidence towards anything one way or the other (yup, this goes for skeptics too).

Please, don’t point to “hits” on your fictional television show as anything that should sway a skeptic. It’s television. It’s also edited television. It’s also edited television where the producers reserve the right to create “fictional” events. Stop digging for your old tapes. They're worthless.

Nothing, absolutely nothing, you saw on "Crossing Over" qualifies as evidence of anything. Ever.

Questions?

 

[hgc]

Not even evidence that JE has a TV show?

 

[Paul C. Anagnostopoulos]

Nope, not even that. Could be a JE doppelganger.

~~ Paul

 

[Ed]

Good point. Think of all of the electrons we have killed on a fools errand.

 

[TLN]

My psychic predictions:

No Edward believer or fan will address the point of this post unless it's to say that "Crossing Over" is in fact not edited.

Edward believers or fans will continue to cite "special hits" from "Crossing Over" as evidence of his authenticity.

 

[Walter Wayne]

Wow, I tend to think that the poor performance on a show that he has editorial power on is evidence of an even poorer hit rate.

Walt

 

[TLN]

Wow, I tend to think that the poor performance on a show that he has editorial power on is evidence of an even poorer hit rate.

Well, that's very logical, but I'm just trying to be fair. If it's inadmissible for believers then it's inadmissible for us too.

 

[Thanz]

Edward believers or fans will continue to cite "special hits" from "Crossing Over" as evidence of his authenticity.

Does it prove Edward to be real? Of course not.

It is, however, evidence of why some people believe he might be real. Clancie's position has been that there might be something to this mediumship business, and much of that is based on the special hits she sees on CO.

So, while I agree with you that it is not evidence of authenticity, it is still interesting to discuss. It shows some of his techniques. It shows some "special hits" and the reactions of those who are read. It provides us with some interesting information to banter about and get insight into a believer's mind or mindset regarding these kinds of phenomena.

 

[Clancie]

Posted by TLN

My psychic predictions:

No Edward believer or fan will address the point of this post unless it's to say that "Crossing Over" is in fact not edited.

Edward believers or fans will continue to cite "special hits" from "Crossing Over" as evidence of his authenticity.

Well, TLN, don't quit your day job.

Why in the world would any "JE believer or fan" say that CO "is in fact not edited"? How stupid do you think we are? (No, wait, that last one is just rhetorical--I really don't want to know ).

Discussing whether or not readings on CO are (1) consistent with JE's claims about the "process" or (2) consistent or inconsistent with the principles of cold reading is a far cry from using it as "evidence", either for believers or non-believers.

"Evidence", TLN? I don't remember any believer here citing CO as "evidence" that JE must be for real, no doubt possible about it at all based solely on the readings he does on this program.

Could you link me to such an argument? I must have missed it.

 

[Darat]

Well, TLN, don't quit your day job.

Why in the world would any "JE believer or fan" say that CO "is in fact not edited"? How stupid do you think we are? (No, wait, that last one is just rhetorical--I really don't want to know ).

Discussing whether or not readings on CO are (1) consistent with JE's claims about the "process" or (2) consistent or inconsistent with the principles of cold reading is a far cry from using it as "evidence", either for believers or non-believers.

...snip...

Sorry Clancie the producers and JE have the right to make it all up.

What we see could be total fiction. If we want to discuss Crossing Over the TV show we should really move our discussion to the TV forum "Movies, TV, Music, Computer Gaming, and other Entertainment ".

To continue to use CO as evidence of JE’s claim to be able to communicate with the dead is now like trying to argue that teleportation is real by examining if the “process” used in Star Trek is consistent!

 

[TLN]

Could you link me to such an argument? I must have missed it.

Am I to understand that you're claiming you've never pointed to "special hit" on "Crossing Over" as evidence of Edward's authenticity?

Please, just a yes or no. You've either done this or you haven't.

 

[TLN]

...and much of that is based on the special hits she sees on CO.

But that's exactly my point: There is no such thing as a "special hit" on an edited television show where the producers reserve the right to create works of fiction.

 

[Clancie]

Posted by TLN

Am I to understand that you're claiming you've never pointed to "special hit" on "Crossing Over" as evidence of Edward's authenticity?

TLN,

I am saying that I have never said "Those amazing special hits on Crossing Over are proof, genuine evidence, that JE is the real deal, no question about it", or words to that effect.

If you have examples that show I've said otherwise, by all means, please post them all.

And, on a related note, do you have the quote handy where the CO producers say they reserve the right to use the audience's readings to create a work of fiction? I don't have the doc with me at the moment.

 

[TLN]

I am saying that I have never said "Those amazing special hits on Crossing Over are proof, genuine evidence, that JE is the real deal, no question about it", or words to that effect.

If you have examples that show I've said otherwise, by all means, please post them all.

I never said you claimed it was unequivocal evidence, but you certainly present "special hits" as evidence that there might be something to Edward.

True or false?

 

[Thanz]

But that's exactly my point: There is no such thing as a "special hit" on an edited television show where the producers reserve the right to create works of fiction.

Okay, I know that you are going to laugh at this response, but here goes anyway. please be gentle

I think that we need to put some faith in the basic integrity of the show. By that I mean that JE says certain things and he gets certain responses, and the exit interviews are basically correct - again, in that the people said what they said.

Yes, I know that they could make up the whole damn thing. And I agree that we can't use it as scientific evidence of anything. But that is not the same thing as saying the reading didn't take place.

For example, the oft debated Niagara Falls feather. We can debate till the cows come home about whether it was cold reading, hot reading, lucky guess or (for some) mediumship. It is not evidence of anything, as you point out, but it can be a "special hit" as that term is understood, which may cause someone to believe in JE's abilities.

 

[Clancie]

Posted by TLN

I never said you claimed it was unequivocal evidence, but you certainly present "special hits" as evidence that there might be something to Edward.

True or false?

TLN,

My understanding of how you use the word "evidence" is not consistent with the inclusion of the phrase "might be"....You, like Claus, see this issue as black and white. So far, I don't.

Yes, I have said the special hits on CO are interesting and started me thinking there might be something to mediumship. (And, as Thanz points out, the opportunity to hear from sitters' post analysis, pro and con, is also quite informative).

However, CO was the beginning of my looking into this, not the end. Other things (not only JE-related) have added to my overall impression that "there might be something to mediumship".

I fully understand that CO is edited and although personally I feel that hot reading is highly unlikely, I understand why it hypothetically can't completely be ruled out when names are known in advance. I disagree that editing creates JE's hits where none exist, but I agree that the hit rate is probably somewhat inflated by editing (I think the difference of renata's/ersby's total is probably about right, but I don't have proof of that and would like to read what Underdown thinks).

JE isn't the only medium in history, TLN, or even at the present. The case for or against mediumship does not rise and fall on "CO", although it is interesting to look at in terms of many mediumship-related issues simply because it is so easily available for viewing..

And...do you have the quote from the release form about giving consent to producers to fictionalize people's readings?

 

[Zep]

Here's Victor Zammit's take on JE. One would definitely be led to believe that he has no problem accepting the show as genuine evidence!!

JOHN EDWARD: is rapidly becoming the most important mental medium in history. His CROSSING OVER television shows are just so fabulous - I highly recommend you NEVER to miss his shows. Watch the participants' faces when they receive afterlife information! Continue to work out the odds of J EDWARD obtaining the information by chance. I must also salute James Van Praagh who is also making a huge psi afterlife contribution through his own television show Beyond.

And for there record, here's Victor's logic on why all the woo-woo stuff is logically true:

WHY IS COURT LOGIC MORE IMPORTANT TO MANKIND THAN ORTHODOX REDUCTIONIST SCIENCE? NASA scientists, other highly credible scientists and empiricists and other highly credible people around the world stated they experienced some psychic phenomenon. Orthodox scientists will say, "Ha, you cannot reduce it in the laboratory so that we can test it and apply statistics, therefore we reject your experience." In a courtroom situation, the court process will test their claims and if the claims are made by those mentioned above more likely than not the courts WILL accept the occurrence of the phenomenon as admissible evidence. The courts will inevitably argue something like this: although orthodox science may not accept the evidence, the court WILL accept it because the evidence has been tested, highly credible people repeatedly stated they experienced the psychic phenomenon and orthodox science did not prove the phenomenon did not have credibility or it could not have happened.

Yep. Victor has logic down to a science...

 

[TLN]

My understanding of how you skeptics use "evidence" is not consistent with the inclusion of the phrase "might be"....

Don't stereotype skeptics please.

Yes, I have said the special hits on CO are interesting and started me thinking there might be something to mediumship. (And, as Thanz points out, the opportunity to hear from sitters' post analysis, pro and con, is also quite informative).

It's interesting in the same way the Enterprise traveling faster than the speed of light is interesting, sure, in a "how do they do that" kind of way.

However, CO was the beginning of my looking into this, not the end. Other things (not only JE-related) have added to my overall impression that "there might be something to mediumship".

Alright then. We can discuss those then and leave CO alone forever?

I fully understand that CO is edited and although personally I feel that hot reading is highly unlikely, I understand why it hypothetically can't completely be ruled out when names are known in advance. I disagree that editing creates JE's hits where none exist, but I agree that the hit rate is probably somewhat inflated by editing (I think the difference of renata's/ersby's total is probably about right).

Your second strawman in a single thread. I never claimed Edward cheats. Personally, I don't think Edward hot reads at all. Please try and stay on topic.

And...do you have the quote from the release form about giving consent to producers to fictionalize people's readings?

Well, I'm proceeding from NoZed Avenger's legal reading of the release form.

3. It is understood that the program or any related works may contain factual and/or fictional scenes. Oh, and you waive rights for slander or libel based on that.

My layperson's view would agree that they're free to use footage they collect for pretty much whatever they want. I'll find you some specific passages and post them here.

But those passages aside, pointing to "special hits" on CO asks us to believe that no funny editing goes on at all, and that's just asking too much. When the Enterprise exceeds Warp One I don't ask how they built a ship to travel faster than light to flim, I ask how they created a special effect.

 

[renata]

Release

http://www.skepticreport.com/resources/jerelease/page1.gif
First paragraph. I will not retype everything. The undersigned gives the producers rights to likeness, waives objections to anything they do to the likeness, gives them absolute control to edit their name, voice, likeness, oh and by the way....

"it being understood that the program or any derivative works thereof may contain factual and/or fictional scenes, action and dialogue."

 

[Ed]

TLN,


And...do you have the quote from the release form about giving consent to producers to fictionalize people's readings?

That was from YOUR thread

http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=26642