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Please help...

I don't have a link to add, but I do have something to say about University and the possible mindsets of the kids you'll encounter there. I'm guessing that these kids are in it for the thrill of knowing something that no one else does... it's the fraternity mentality. I saw it when I was in University on other issues. The best way to beat it back is to show two things;

first that you have the facts on your side and that the other side is bending these facts to fit a picture that isn't quite what it seems.

second is the consequences of their actions. Remind them that they are dishonouring the lives lost on 9/11, they are dishonouring the scientists who have investigated, (depending on the specific documentary) they are implying that our grossly underpaid civil servants (fire and police) are in on a plot to kill thousands including many friends and brothers-in-arms. Ask them if that is *really* what they are saying and remind them that they can't be saying that it's a conspiracy without implying everything else.

At a university event you might be able to see the people who are just lurkers here and get them to go from absorbing the information presented to ENGAGING the information presented with logic and knowledge. That's the win you're looking for, not knocking down the leaders of the event (though that'd be great too) but to get people to engage the information.
 
OMGturt1es said:
another 911 vid that will be shown in my city. i will be around this time. i've already started debunking the video. i just found out about this. the video will be shown on thursday. i have a lot that i have to do between now and then! i can dedicate about 5-6 more hours toward this.
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An important proviso. There are endless explanations for every little detail of 911. It should never be a given that the explanation of those little details is the critical aspect. The most important area of rebuttal is

  • The planes were seen hitting the towers
  • The fires in the towers were seen to burn for several hours
  • There is no evidence of any other contributing factor
This is far more important than the ins and outs of just how long the towers took to fall, or whether steel can melt at a particular temperature. The burden of proof of some additional factor is totally on the conspiracists.
 
One thing I would certainly suggest is that you get them to show the clip of the Windsor Towers on fire again (assuming that this will be the Q&A after the movie). Starting about 13:35, we see the steel portions of the building collapsing. At 14:05 they show a picture from the next day, and you can see that all that remains standing is the concrete core. It's one of those "right out in the open" lies that is contradicted by the evidence on the screen.
 
The Doc said:
There is no evidence that the "molten metal" below ground zero was steel.
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It always makes me laugh when a CTer says something like "Molten metal was found at the site. How can there be molten steel there without thermite reaction?"

The leap in logic is laughable. It's like saying, "We're having vegetables for dinner" and your guest answers, "I'd better leave, I'm allergic to carrots."
 
westprog said:
An important proviso. There are endless explanations for every little detail of 911. It should never be a given that the explanation of those little details is the critical aspect. The most important area of rebuttal is

  • The planes were seen hitting the towers
  • The fires in the towers were seen to burn for several hours
  • There is no evidence of any other contributing factor
This is far more important than the ins and outs of just how long the towers took to fall, or whether steel can melt at a particular temperature. The burden of proof of some additional factor is totally on the conspiracists.
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west, that works for many of us, but i've personally known five people that it did not work for. three of them had to see the all the arguments eviscerated before ditching the CTs. the others never ditched the CTs. basically, i've lost two friends-- kinda-- due to the CTs.

these arguments attempt to make the viewer conclude that what was witnessed on 911 was not what it appeared to be. those that believe these arguments, therefore, reject the basic notions that work so well for most others.

==================

regarding the event held at my university, i've found-- thanks blade!-- that it kicks off on monday 23rd(?) with a showing of screw 911 mysteries. it continues for three more days (i think), two of which are dedicated to 911 CTs.

the format is worrisome. the entire event is started with debunking, so any claims not encountered in screw 911 mysteries won't be debunked.

crap... bus leaving... gotta run! ... will finish later...

adios all!
 
Hi, I can't help with all of these topics right now, but I do have some information about a few of them.

First, how hot the fires got. From what I've read of the NIST report, the people at NIST re-created some workstations of the World Trade Center, and set them on fire. The near-ceiling temperatures in these tests varied between 800 degees C and 1,100 degrees C. Plenty hot enough to significantly weaken steel.
From Popular Mechanics: Debunking 9/11 Myths:
[FONT=&quot]“Steel begins to lose strength as low as about 400 degrees Celsius (750 degrees Fahrenheit) and loses roughly 50 percent of its strength at approximately 600 degrees Celsius (1,800 degrees Fahrenheit). At 980 degrees Celsius (1,800 degrees Fahrenheit), it retains less than 10 percent, says Farid Alfawakhiri, the senior engineer of construction codes and standards at the American Iran and Steel Institute, an industry group in Washington D.C.”[/FONT]

Here are a few pictures of bowing columns from the South Tower:
saggingfloors7.jpg


bow3.jpg



buckling1.jpg


saggingfloors8.jpg


Collapse:
SouthTowerbow.jpg

beginningofthecollapse.jpg


North Tower:
bow2.jpg


Bowing is clearly visible on the South and the east walls in the above photo.

The fire doesn't need to be hot enough to melt steel, this is just a retarded point some conspiracy theorists try to bring up. Some act like steel retains complete strength until it becomes a liquid, which if you think about it is completely obsurd.

Pancake floors
The best pictures I've seen showing floor slabs stacked on top of each other are on Steve Spak's website. Just look at a few of them here:
http://www.stevespak.com/fires/manhattan/wtc6.html

Free Fall Collapse.

None of the buildings on 9/11 fell at Free-Fall speeds. The North Tower is the most obvious.

Watch this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SYUx5zJ3yss and you can see that the collapse isn't anywhere near Free-Fall. Here are a few screens with the times:
1-1.jpg


Point of free-fall:
10-1.jpg

Still taller than WTC 7.

Around the end, could still be collapsing but it's hard to tell:
18-1.jpg


The South Tower fell faster than the north, but it still didn't Free-fall. I suggest just listening to the collapse of the South Tower to get the time, there are very few good videos showing the full collapse that I've seen.
http://www.911myths.com/html/south_tower_collapse_time.html

Many people say WTC 7 fell at Free-Fall speeds because they completely ignore the collapse of the East Mechanical Penthouse, a 14,950 square foot structure on the roof of the building.
wtc7-penthouse-kink.gif


Footprint collapse, WTC 7:

This is another false claim. WTC 7 dealt great damage to surrounding buildings.

Verizon building damaged by the collapse of WTC 7:
damagetoverizonbuilding.jpg


b7verizon2.jpg


30 West Broadway damage:
WTC30WBroadwayDamagefromWTC7.jpg


If you look at the picture posted above showing Barclay street being blocked by debris, you'll also notice that some debris from WTC 7 landed on the roof of 30 West Broadway.

Damage to WTC 7:

Damagebytower1.jpg


SWcornerdamage.jpg


facedamage1.jpg


Fig5.jpg


facedamage.jpg


damage.jpg


If you want a lot of information about WTC 7 and the Truth Movement in general, then you should take a look at Gravy's paper here:
http://www.911myths.com/WTC7_Lies.pdf

Jets of gas.
http://www.debunking911.com/overp.htm

Just read the link above and it will explain the jets of gas from WTC 7.

Hope this helps, sorry I couldn't help out with the other topics, I'm in kind of a rush right now. :)
 
thanks to all of you who have posted references and photos! you've helped me tremendously! i've just finished the document. it's 13 pages. i've left out a number of topics. printing will already be irrating enough, and i'm very low on sleep now, so i think i'm done.

you can access the document here: http://www.metalhordes.com/bleak/911/

if you have any suggestions/comments/corrections, please let me know sometime before ~ 2 PM PST.

thanks all, i really apprecaite your help,
anthony.
 
OMGturt1es said:
thanks to all of you who have posted references and photos! you've helped me tremendously! i've just finished the document. it's 13 pages. i've left out a number of topics. printing will already be irrating enough, and i'm very low on sleep now, so i think i'm done.

you can access the document here: http://www.metalhordes.com/bleak/911/

if you have any suggestions/comments/corrections, please let me know sometime before ~ 2 PM PST.

thanks all, i really apprecaite your help,
anthony.
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I can't open the file. Is it supposed to be named:
'911 CONSPIRACY THEORIES- INNACURACIES, LIES & DISTORTIONS GALORE..docx' ? (the two dots are accurately transcribed)
 
i had that error as well.

i replaced the file with a 911.rar

i think that the problem was actually the server not allowing downloads of unknown file extensions. if you ctrl+refresh the directory, you should see 911.rar, and it should download just fine.

ETA: ohhh, you can't open the file that you've extracted from the rar? that's probably because i used this new version of office-- hence the .docx extension-- and it's probably not compatable with your version of word. let me save another version that should be backward compatable. i'll upload it as 911_all.rar

sorry for the mixup.

ETA #2: ok, i've uploaded a .doc version. it's in a rar file called 911_all.rar
 
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The Doc said:
Nicely formatted :)

I'm reading through it now.
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enjoy!

but do note that any instances of haste, or unintelligable rantings, are likley due to my utter lack of sleep. i'm on 3 hours... spread over two nights. i'm thinking of skipping my petrology lecture. there's no way i'm going to be able to stay awake. i'll just make an ass of myself.

(i mean, i usually don't stay awake the entire time, but today would be ugly...)
 
OMGturt1es said:
i had that error as well.

i replaced the file with a 911.rar

i think that the problem was actually the server not allowing downloads of unknown file extensions. if you ctrl+refresh the directory, you should see 911.rar, and it should download just fine.

ETA: ohhh, you can't open the file that you've extracted from the rar? that's probably because i used this new version of office-- hence the .docx extension-- and it's probably not compatable with your version of word. let me save another version that should be backward compatable. i'll upload it as 911_all.rar

sorry for the mixup.

ETA #2: ok, i've uploaded a .doc version. it's in a rar file called 911_all.rar
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Thanks. As it turns out, my archiver is just crappy, and I can't extract anything at all from RAR files. :con2:
 
ok, so i guess there were no horrible errors. good!

i just got back from my petrology class. i managed to stay awake the entire time. oh yeah.

i guess i'll go make some copies of this now. fun!

thanks again all!
anthony.
 
So, i just returned from the monthly 911 truth meeting. i was relived to find that there were only 13 or so atendees. a few seemed quite ineterested in the literature, and quite interested in what i had to say.

one immediately asked me who i was working for, hahah.

anyways, it was interesting. a few of the folk seemed really nice. i felt badly for them. others were really pissed. they kicked me out.
 
OMGturt1es said:
So, i just returned from the monthly 911 truth meeting. i was relived to find that there were only 13 or so atendees. a few seemed quite ineterested in the literature, and quite interested in what i had to say.

one immediately asked me who i was working for, hahah.

anyways, it was interesting. a few of the folk seemed really nice. i felt badly for them. others were really pissed. they kicked me out.
Click to expand...

Shame you got kicked out, but good job :)
 
OMGturt1es said:
So, i just returned from the monthly 911 truth meeting. i was relived to find that there were only 13 or so atendees. a few seemed quite ineterested in the literature, and quite interested in what i had to say.

one immediately asked me who i was working for, hahah.

anyways, it was interesting. a few of the folk seemed really nice. i felt badly for them. others were really pissed. they kicked me out.
Click to expand...

haha, you got kicked out. Must mean you were doing a great job! :)
 
OMGturt1es said:
anyways, it was interesting. a few of the folk seemed really nice. i felt badly for them. others were really pissed. they kicked me out.
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Hahaha! Sweet!
I don't think I have the guts to go to a 9-11 Truth anything. I would just feel all dirty and gross.
 
Axiom_Blade said:
Hahaha! Sweet!
I don't think I have the guts to go to a 9-11 Truth anything. I would just feel all dirty and gross.
Click to expand...

yup, i can understand that 100%. i had to convince a friend to come along with me. he just sat outside the conference room and watched. he couldn't bring himself to go in.

i actually found it somewhat enjoyable, but that's largely due to the fact that a few of them seemed sincerely interested in my arguments. it's also due to the fact that i'm super low on sleep. when i get really tired it affects the way i feel in social settings; i just don't give a ****. usually i'm inherently shy, and can't stand speaking up.

interestingly enough, the attendees all seemed to be middle aged and older. as this is a college town, i expected to see some college kids there. i did not. i had to search out the 911 truth group, however. i've never seen them advertise anything. i'm wondering if things may change after the upcoming event being hosted at my university wherenin a professor is espousing 911 CT theories. (yeah blade, i've been emailing him, and while his emails have been cheese dicked two sentence responses, he has stated that he believes the official story to be false, and has indicated that he agrees with jones' arguments.)
 
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