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PK parties

The Don said:

I agree with you 100%, someone going in expecting there to be an effect is far more likely to come out believing that they've experienced the effect.

Still doesn't mean that there was an effect.

Keep in mind the "putting mundane explanations aside for a moment." If we were to design a protocol for testing the hypothesis that people are bending spoons beyond their "normal" capacity, how would we do it?

As Luci states, apparently I will need a large group of people. This has been explained by Jack several times, and I intend to follow it.

The people will apparently not need to be believers, as Crichton, Radin, and in fact Houck himself didn't believe it beforehand. But an open mind is of course critical.

If I can find 50 people in my area to do this with, and I end up bending one of my own stainless steel spoons (which I have spent much time fruitlessly trying to bend with my bare hands), I will have something to report.

No doubt questions will arise regarding my own intelligence / rationality / gullibility / etc. if I do obtain a positive outcome, regardless of the tightness of the protocol. Also, no doubt I will get many pointless high-fives if it fails. With this in mind, I would like to hear suggestions on how to design it reasonably so that such accusations can be thwarted in advance.

Needless to say, there is no way to make the evidence perfectly airtight for either side--the true believers and the true disbelievers are already beyond hope.
 
Re: Re: Re: PK parties

Darat said:

Are you referring to a standard "yale" type key made of whatever they are normally made of?


I don't know what a yale type of key is. I was just referring to a standard old house key, whihc might be a yale type, I don't know.


I’ve tried to bend one before with my hands and I could never get enough leverage with just my hand - how can you bend these with your just hands?

You just bend it using brute force.

You can also get larger luggage keys and keys for lock boxes for coin collectors that are much easier to bend.
 
Ed said:
Let's see: We can invoke the paranormal or we can do this. How can people be so stupid? It amazes me.

http://allmagicreviews.com/allmagicreview04.html


It's an effin' magic trick!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


That's brilliant! All of the participants of these parties (including Crichton and Radin) read "ARCHANGEL KEY ROUTINE" by NICHOLAS BENGTSON before coming to the party, and then applied the trick to their spoons!

The oft-used "How can people be so stupid? It amazes me." quote is my favorite. Both Feynman and Hawking are/were fond of claiming that only those who fail at math and science turn to mysticism. Did it ever occur to you that there may be extremely intelligent people out there who are merely trying to investigate, and haven't found all the answers yet?

Come off it, really. Your "ARCHANGEL KEY ROUTINE" does nothing to explain what these people believe they experienced. At least give something relevant, like "they're all lying lunatics and so are you." That would at least have bearing on the questions I asked.
 
Originally posted by flyboy217


That's brilliant! All of the participants of these parties (including Crichton and Radin) read "ARCHANGEL KEY ROUTINE" by NICHOLAS BENGTSON before coming to the party, and then applied the trick to their spoons!

Idiot, I was referring to the previous post on keys.

The oft-used "How can people be so stupid? It amazes me." quote is my favorite. Both Feynman and Hawking are/were fond of claiming that only those who fail at math and science turn to mysticism. Did it ever occur to you that there may be extremely intelligent people out there who are merely trying to investigate, and haven't found all the answers yet?

Certainly, but not for stuff as obvious as this. Tell me, if I could always guess your card and I said it was "paranormal" would you investigate any further than a magic store?

Come off it, really. Your "ARCHANGEL KEY ROUTINE" does nothing to explain what these people believe they experienced. At least give something relevant, like "they're all lying lunatics and so are you." That would at least have bearing on the questions I asked.

See my note above on keys. For spoons check out this fine man

http://www.themagicagency.com/closeup.htm

As far as the "parties" go, I think that you have your answer. Tell me, do you really think that all of those folks who get "hypnotised" are really "hypnotised" when a hypnotist does his thing? Why not? Now picture a party of woos, wouldn't you feel left out if your spoon was the only non-flaccid one?

 
Yeah, the spoon bending stuff doesn't impress me at all. It is just too easy to do by many methods, including just misdirection and bending it.
 
Ed said:
Certainly, but not for stuff as obvious as this. Tell me, if I could always guess your card and I said it was "paranormal" would you investigate any further than a magic store?

Not at all. But if many people, none of whom had any magic training, were apparently able to do it, then I might start to wonder.

See my note above on keys. For spoons check out this fine man

http://www.themagicagency.com/closeup.htm

Surely you understand the difference between a performer doing it for a person and that person doing it himself? Again, this misses the point entirely.


As far as the "parties" go, I think that you have your answer. Tell me, do you really think that all of those folks who get "hypnotised" are really "hypnotised" when a hypnotist does his thing? Why not? Now picture a party of woos, wouldn't you feel left out if your spoon was the only non-flaccid one?

I'm not sure how I have my answer. If you're suggesting mass delusion, you're sidestepping the fact that the spoon heads really are buckled, as shown by pictures.

As far as mass hypnosis, I have no idea if, at those shows, every person is hypnotized. But I have hypnotized my friends, and hypnosis is very well accepted medically, so I'm not sure what that would tell me anyway. Clearly at least some people are hypnotized at hypnosis performances.

So far, we have:
  • Mass delusion (fails to account for bent heads)
  • Using excessive force (same)
  • Staged performance (these people were all holding their own spoons)
  • Special alloy
  • Missing any?

Of these, only the alloy one seems to hold any weight. Unless you think the other ones somehow apply, please refrain from listing them yet again (like #3).

Because Jack Houck suggests using stainless steel for these parties, I think there is sufficient cause for me to give it a try myself (with my own group, that is). Does this still seem unreasonable?
 
flyboy217 said:


Because Jack Houck suggests using stainless steel for these parties, I think there is sufficient cause for me to give it a try myself (with my own group, that is). Does this still seem unreasonable?

Nope. In fact I am going to try it tonight with my family.
 
T'ai Chi said:
Yeah, the spoon bending stuff doesn't impress me at all. It is just too easy to do by many methods, including just misdirection and bending it.

1) Get any metal spoon
2) Bend the head in half
3) Get back to me

Would misdirection and "just bending it" be able to accomplish this? Please see my prior post. The only reasonable hypothesis is that these spoons are made of some special alloy.

Please, people, try to stay with the argument.
 
Ed said:


Nope. In fact I am going to try it tonight with my family.

That's a fair reply. I feel sheepish saying this, but it's a point that needs to be made: he also suggests having at least 25 people, and fewer than 15 is worthless he says.

So now, to pre-empt what I know is coming as a response: perhaps go to one of these, sit in your own corner with your family, and use your own silverware?

That's sort of my plan anyway.
 
T'ai Chi said:
Yeah, the spoon bending stuff doesn't impress me at all. It is just too easy to do by many methods, including just misdirection and bending it.

Do you think Targ is lying / deluded? How about Houck, do you have reason to believe he is just scamming people?
 
Lucianarchy said:


Do you think Targ is lying / deluded? How about Houck, do you have reason to believe he is just scamming people?
Targ is the poster boy for deluded. His daughter was the liar.
 
Interesting discussion!

Having dabbled with some of the techniques magicians use for cutlery bending, etc., I've been quite interested in knowing how some of the bowl-bends in Houck's parties have happened. I've tried and tried to find a way to do that using tools subtler than pliers & a vice, but I can't find a way (though for the purposes of magic, this might be enough of course)...

Neither the 'group conformity' argument, or the 'permission to use force' argument as put by Randi, actually explain the bowl bends. They're quite impressive. Personally, I rather like the 'gimmicked cutlery' arguments on this thread; even if people are allowed to bring their own cutlery too, there is no reason to think it's these items which are bent in such a way.

In fact, come to think of it, is there any evidence that the actual bowl bends took place during one of the parties, performed by an unwitting guest?

The picture attached with this post is of a portion of Houck's Amazing Spoon Collection, demonstrating some of the bowl-bends. However, here is a link to what appears to be several people's own souvenirs from Houck's parties - note the lack of bowl-bends.

The plastic cutlery bends are quite interesting, but through continued pressure I imagine one can deform them in a similar fashion anyway.
 
I wonder how much you would have to reduce the thickness of a spoon bowl to enable someone to bend it?
 
Ed said:
As far as the "parties" go, I think that you have your answer. Tell me, do you really think that all of those folks who get "hypnotised" are really "hypnotised" when a hypnotist does his thing? Why not? Now picture a party of woos, wouldn't you feel left out if your spoon was the only non-flaccid one?

And you have the proof in Michael Crichton's account. He says that at one point he was getting a bit p*ssed off that his spoon wasn't bending when everyone else's was, so he tried to bend it by brute force. And he couldn't (more on that in a moment). Then Houck came along, took it from him, did something, handed it back and then it started to bend.

There are other interesting things in Crichton's account. He mentions somewhere that people bring along their own spoons etc., and Houck asks them to put them in a big pile on the floor. Then, when everyone had donated their spoons, Houck dumped a drawerful of "silverware" on top of the pile. People were then encouraged to take an item from the pile and try it.

O.K. so there's this big pile of cutlery on the floor, everyone wants an item and are milling around the pile. I want to get a spoon or whatever. What do most people do? They take something from the top of the pile so as not to bring the proceedings to a complete halt while they rummage through the entire pile. But what's on the TOP of the pile? Why, the "silverware" dumped there by Houck....! Therefore, regardless of what anyone BROUGHT, the probability is that they end up choosing an item supplied by Houck. It doesn't matter if one or two get a "donated" piece, as long as the majority end up with supplied items.

And why the pile in the first place? If most people brought their own spoon etc., why couldn't they just keep that one and use it?

I commented earlier that I was surprised that someone couldn't bend a 3/8 inch aluminum bar. It depends on the length of course, but the commentator said that the bar could be bent over the knee, so it wasn't very short otherwise that would have been impossible. And if it was long then it's not exactly a hard or difficult metal to bend. Then we have Crichton saying that he couldn't bend a spoon by brute force. How likely is that with a normal spoon? And how do we know the bar is aluminium?

I then note that Houck was supposedly employed for 42 years by Boeing. Who do what exactly? They make aircraft. And they are particularly interested in materials stress research. But checking a bit further it turns out that Houck was apparently a project manager of an advanced research team at McDonnell Douglas. Researching what? He doesn't say... What do McDonnell/Boeing research most? Materials stress, particularly plastic deformation of metals under unusual circumstances. It's one of the most common causes of failure in jet engines.

I couldn't find much detail of what their research has revealed in simple terms but I did find some mention of metals with extreme hardness which suddenly become plastic under mild stress and heat. Three different types were mentioned in different reports, ones with microscopic air bubbles, ones with titanium dioxide powder and ones that had been saturated with hydrogen at high temperature and pressure. I also note from some general metallurgy sites that plastic metals often exhibit extreme resistance before becoming plastic and then they tend to suddenly harden into another extreme strength state.

Titanium is one of the strongest metals around, it's also light. Like aluminium. It's also a metal that is widely known for unusual plastic effects. It's one of the main components of shape memory alloys. And it's widely used in aircraft.

Now, none of the above proves anything of course, but it's certainly highly suspicious.

Finally, working on the Pragmatist principle that hard core woo's usually have something to sell, I thought it may be worth seeing if Houck had anything related to sell. He does. He just happens to sell a software program that is designed to "tune up" your psychic powers in preparation for remote viewing, spoon bending etc...

Definitely warrants a hmmm....!

On the positive side, the idea that the spoons etc., are some special material is unlikely if he lets people take them away, assuming that the material is somewhat expensive - it may not be, I wouldn't know.

I can't say that the whole thing is a trick or that psychic powers are NOT involved. But it definitely LOOKS suspicious.

Regarding a test, the first thing to do would be to use an item that is guaranteed NOT to have been supplied by Houck or anyone else involved. Secondly, seal it in a glass box or something and THEN bend it by "mind power" without anyone touching it at all. Also make sure the area is monitored for unusual radiation, magnetic fields etc. A tiny magnetic induction coil could be hidden in someone's sleeve that would rapidly spot heat a metal object brought close to it for example. There are probably many more things that need to be done, but I think those would be a good start.
 
Psiload said:
Targ is the poster boy for deluded. His daughter was the liar.

As you are someone who proudly uses a rapist for his avatar, your opinions are, to say the least, worthless.
 
flyboy217 said:
Surely you understand the difference between a performer doing it for a person and that person doing it himself? Again, this misses the point entirely.

I can't speak for Ed, but did you notice the quote below at the site he linked to?

"He can even make a spoon bend when a member of the audience is holding it!"

It doesn't miss the point if the performer tells that person THEY are bending it with their own "psychic power" does it?
 
Hey there!

Y'know, arguing the specifics of an event, when no one doing the arguing was present at said event, is fun, but fundamentally useless.

Lucianarchy: You've been here a long time, and people are very mean to you. That's because the average skeptic is annoyed by folks like you. So, jaded though you may have become, tell me:

If all known laws of physics and biology would be violated by the telekinetic bending of a spoon, doesn't it make sense that people demand more than anecdotal evidence to suddenly agree that such a thing took place? There's anecdotal evidence for absolutely everything--some of it's even pretty good (sounding)! But before we go flopping our paradigms around, shouldn't we have something more tangible than anecdotes?

I mean, check it out: The moment someone can bend a spoon of mine, without touching the damned thing, I will say, "Whoops, been wrong this whole time. Whattayaknow?" And I'm sure the same can be said for everyone here. But, c'mon, you're supplying ANECDOTES. That ain't evidence. I mean, if anecdotes were evidence, then Jesus of Nazareth did way more impressive things than bend a spoon--not sure how you stand on that. Also, Jews were attempting to take over Germany at some point in the 1920s. Not sure how you stand on that one, either, but we might as well be consistent: "It's been said--by college educated people! It must be so!"

Please, Lucian. Just send one of these people down here to Fort Lauderdale. He can impress me with his creative uses of silverware, take in a few days of fun and sun, and I'll swing him by the JREF offices, where his little vacation will more than pay for itself. I'll stand right there--I won't even let James dearest cheat. Deal? Deal.

Peace,
- B
 
There is a video in our University Library, The Second Coming of Science:
In this presentation, former NASA astronaut and Princeton physics professor Brian O'Leary Ph.D. challenges us to go beyond the current limits of scientific inquiry and encourages the world's scientific community to start thinking outside the box Newtonian physics has drawn around our concept of what we believe our universe to be.

This talented and inspiring meta-physician fuses science with the paranormal -- exploring psychokinesis, telepathy, crystals, dowsing, UFOs, the Face on Mars, crop circles, free energy and the manifestations of Sai Baba -- in a credible, entertaining and visual-filled video.
At one point in the video (which is his lecture in front of a crowd of friendly believers), he pulls out a couple of spoons and proceeds to bend them. Of course, since he is merely learning, he bends them only with his hands, but to hear him talk about it, it is mostly his mind; clearly, his audience believes it is his mind. He begins by gently trying to bend the spoon back and forth...it will not move at all at first, but with time and effort, the spoon warms up and plasticises. O'Leary even describes it accurately as becoming more flexible, until it will reach a point where it bends easily. As it approaches that point, he announces it to the audience, and asks them to chant "Bend! Bend! Bend! Bend!". This they do with great enthusiasm. Finally the spoon reaches the plastic state, and he rapidly bends it into a corkscrew shape, 2 or 3 times around in a circle....then holds the finished product out for view. Again quite correctly, he notes that as the spoon cools down, it loses its plasticity again, such that bending it back is impossible.

He (and the audience) are quite convinced that it was their collective mind power that bent the spoon. I wish there was the opportunity to interview some of the participants these years later--it was quite obvious to me that his hands provided all the energy necessary (and his own narration confirms that!), but I wonder if the audience members remember it that way.

If you ever get a chance to see the movie...don't drink any soda just before that scene...
 

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