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Pinochet dies

Snipped up, and re-ordered, with my substitutions in bold.
Darth Rotor said:
That Bush took the lead in a democratic elections does not make his subsequent actions democratic, any more than his unlawful actions after his election (to include establishment of his wiretaps, declarations of enemy combatants ) were in accordance with US law.

And oddly enough, the leader of that party began to take steps to create a one party state, in accordance with Marxist principles.

As Patricio's link pointed out, his decisions were either illegal, or dubiously legal, according to US law.

DR
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Strange how little bolding was required to do that.
 
BPSCG said:
I'm just saving all these "I hate that brutal Latin American dictator" posts so y'all have a handy place to find them next year when Fidel goes.

Of course, y'all will have to ratchet up the hatred, since Castro:
  • Killed as many people as Pinochet (and he's not done yet);
  • Tortured and imprisoned more (and he's not done yet);
  • Stole just as much, if not more money (and he's not done yet);
  • Stayed in power more than twice as long;
  • And, in contrast to Pinochet, who left a thriving economy in his wake, wrecked his country's economy.
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I don't know what makes you think I'm going to mourn the loss of Castro. I saved some kerosene for him too.

I simply wonder why some people feel the need to point out the good Pinochet did. He murdered innocent people. Who really cares what else he did? Do people have fond memories of Pol Pot increasing rubber exports by 13%?
 
BPSCG said:
I'm just saving all these "I hate that brutal Latin American dictator" posts so y'all have a handy place to find them next year when Fidel goes.

Of course, y'all will have to ratchet up the hatred, since Castro:
  • Killed as many people as Pinochet (and he's not done yet);
  • Tortured and imprisoned more (and he's not done yet);
  • Stole just as much, if not more money (and he's not done yet);
  • Stayed in power more than twice as long;
  • And, in contrast to Pinochet, who left a thriving economy in his wake, wrecked his country's economy.
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Hey, I'll be there dancing on his grave. What, detesting a right-wing piece-of-garbage dictator invalidates our rights to detest a left-wing ditto?
 
Some people on this thread seem to have a major problem with their morals, perception and judgment --- if you are going to whine that Pinochet somehow wasn't so bad, and somehow Allende justified Pinochet's murderous actions, you have no moral basis at all to whine at all about Shi'ite terrorists, Iran or whatever.

And if you want to use Castro as an excuse, same thing; nothing Castro did excuses what Pinochet did.
 
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Gurdur said:
Some people on this thread seem to have a major problem with their morals, perception and judgment --- if you are going to whine that Pinochet somehow wasn't so bad, and somehow Allende justified Pinochet's murderous actions, you have no moral basis at all to whine at all about Shi'ite terrorists, Iran or whatever.

And if you want to use Castro as an excuse, same thing; nothing Castro did excuses what Pinochet did.
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Gurdur, I think you live in Great Britain and maybe have a clearer context on the man known as Castro. Here in the States Castro has a mystique to some like the Marx Brothers, John Lennon, a sort of cuddly '60's hippy icon. To some he represents a successful socilistic experiment, (low illiteracy, etc.) and a poke in the eye to its dominant capitalist-pig neighbor, us, er, the U.S. I have Cuban American friends who say he is evil and can't wait till he dies. But in general, he is on certain levels an admired underdog. So to point out Castro's acts of atrocity is I think a scream to awaken those in Castro's spell and say, "Hey, let's wake up look at his track record! He ain't no better than Pinochet."
 
steverino said:
Gurdur, I think you live in Great Britain and maybe have a clearer context on the man known as Castro. Here in the States Castro has a mystique to some like the Marx Brothers, John Lennon, a sort of cuddly '60's hippy icon. To some he represents a successful socilistic experiment, (low illiteracy, etc.) and a poke in the eye to its dominant capitalist-pig neighbor, us, er, the U.S. I have Cuban American friends who say he is evil and can't wait till he dies. But in general, he is on certain levels an admired underdog. So to point out Castro's acts of atrocity is I think a scream to awaken those in Castro's spell and say, "Hey, let's wake up look at his track record! He ain't no better than Pinochet."
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Thank you. That's what I was driving at; in the U.S., at least, there seems to be some kind of sneaking admiration for Castro because after fifty years of murder, oppression, corruption, and economic mismanagement, he's given all Cubans inadequate health care. The next time I hear some @#$%-for-brains observe, "He's outlived x U.S. presidents," like that's some sort of admirable accomplishment, I'm gonna whack him upside the head with a dead grouper. Staying in power for fifty years without murdering all your opponents - that would be a real accomplishment.
 
I agree that outliving presidents who are elected and can only stand twice is no real accomplishment, but given US attempts to murder him in the Sixties, it's enough to raise a wry smile.
 
Ian Osborne said:
I agree that outliving presidents who are elected and can only stand twice is no real accomplishment, but given US attempts to murder him in the Sixties, it's enough to raise a wry smile.
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Noted that you specify "in the Sixties." Nobody's suggesting seriously that Castro's been on every president's - from Eisenhower to Bush II - "world leaders to assassinate" list. So, "outlived x U.S. presidents" isn't particularly noteworthy. I've outlived every president since Truman (so far), but nobody suggests that's particularly admirable - and unlike Castro, I have not murdered everyone whose opinions differ from mine, so my future is much more precarious than Fidel's.

If I die today, I want my tombstone to read, "BPSCG - Outlived Ten U.S. Presidents."
 
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BPSCG said:
Noted that you specify "in the Sixties." Nobody's suggesting seriously that Castro's been on every president's - from Eisenhower to Bush II - "world leaders to assassinate" list.
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Not to assassinate, but certainly to destabilise and depose. That's why you have a trade embargo, y'know...
 
Not to put to fine a point on it, but Castro has outlived 5 serving (during Castro's years in power) U.S. Presidents - Eisenhower, Kennedy, Johnson, Nixon, and Reagan, WHO WERE ALL OLDER THAN FIDEL, who was born in 1926.


He's also younger than GHW Bush, Ford, and Carter, and as it's going, they may outlive him, so he will have 5-3 score. I've already outlived Mozart, Harry Nilsson, James Dean, and Carole Lombard, so I must be proof of something.

There! Finite proof that uh.... something or another about freedom and free market healthcare, I guess. :bricks:

As to impeaching GWB..... Why? Another grandstanding play by Congress? Sure, since it worked so well with the Iran-Contra hearings (that never got to impeachment, but were surely intended as the same P.R. cudgel) and with Clinton. Let him serve out his term and let the checks and balances of the current Congress do their thing.
 
BPSCG said:
in the U.S., at least, there seems to be some kind of sneaking admiration for Castro because after fifty years of murder, oppression, corruption, and economic mismanagement, he's given all Cubans inadequate health care.
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Foreign Exchange (In Focus: Che’s Anatomy)
They have every--you know every kind of equipment or any kind of tests and stuff that you want to run. It’s just--it may be a little outdated; it’s probably something we used at home in the United States in the ‘80s.
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This is from a US student who chose to go to med school in Cuba. This person seemed to think that being 20+ years behind was fine because it was free and available to everyone. I suppose "inadequate" means different things to different people. I would personally prefer to benefit from the last 20 years of technilogical advancement. Even if I have to pay for it.
 
fishbob said:
Snipped up, and re-ordered, with my substitutions in bold.


Strange how little bolding was required to do that.
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Funnily enough, Bush didn't alienate the US military, which you could call a very good tactical move. ;)

By the way, when is the fishbob coup going to start? :confused:

DR
 
Skeptic said:
It's not a matter of "rights"; it has to do with the fact that Allende's next acts, after democratically taking power, would have undoubtably been to nationalize the economy, ban other political parties, and execute or "reeducate" every "counterrevolutionary" he could lay his hands on--that's what all Marxist governments did once they came to power, whether they got there by a revolution or by elections.

So the coup was not really a coup against a democratically elected government, but against a Marxist dictatorship. That the result was a right-wing dictatorship is not much of a consolation, but at least let us be clear about what the real options were: it was only a question of what kind of dictatorship Chile would be under, not whether it would be under totalitarian rule.
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"Would have undoubtedly been", my ****ing ass... That´s a safe thing to say, since there´s no way to disprove it.

What actually happened is, a democratically elected government that *could* maybe have turned into a dictatorship which *could* maybe have killed dissenter was replaced by an actual dictatorship which actually *did* kill dissenters by the thousands.
 
rikzilla said:
Can a new video of Jay-Z in an Augusto Pinochet t-shirt be far off??

Well okay, he's way too old and ugly to put on a t-shirt! We like our controversial anti-heros to be young, handsome and look great in a beret or dreds. Oh yeah...and be anti-capitalist/imperialist/materialist/industrialist/zionist/establishment/etc-etc-etc.

Pinochet was a murderer and good riddance to him. But there are lots of murderers out there...some are simply more popular than others depending on one's politics or even sense of style.

Let's kick Pinochet's corpse into the unmarked grave he deserves...let's pitch those trendy Che t-shirts in that hole too while we're at it.

-z
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Isn't it odd how some murderous revolutionary thug scumbags become folk heroes and some are seen as the simply murderous revolutionary thug scumbags they are. Che, Castro, the Tupamaros, all had movies made about them, putting them in a better than awful light. I kinda doubt Pinochet will get the same treatment.
 
Polaris said:
Isn't it odd how some murderous revolutionary thug scumbags become folk heroes and some are seen as the simply murderous revolutionary thug scumbags they are. Che, Castro, the Tupamaros, all had movies made about them, putting them in a better than awful light. I kinda doubt Pinochet will get the same treatment.
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Powerful authority figure killing thousands - who wants to see that?
Wretched peasant killing thousand on the way to power - now that is some movie excitement. Its that 'underdog taking on the establishment' appeal that makes movies.
 
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