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Pim Van Lommel

JMA said:
I'm looking for a skeptical point of view about Pim Van Lommel's NDE Study.
It's rubbish.


Seriously ... You've almost died, your brain has been deprived of oxygen and more than likely you're full off drugs ... Who'd have thought you'd see some strange things?
 
The thing I find amazing about this is how people view NDE as something unusual.

Ever have a high fever while you're sleeping and have fever dreams because of it? You can have some pretty weird dreams that seem 100% real. Yet no one I know of has claimed that fever dreams are visions, or access to another reality.

Why is it so hard to accept that while dying, a percentage of people will experience some sensory symptoms? And why is it so impossible that those symptoms will often be the same?
 
Do you know any scientific publication who critics Van Lommel's research?
 
This was put to bed years ago, you get the same “NDE” effect from high speed acceleration like a jet pilot would experience.
I’d wager that Judy Hawkes PHD was a woo woo before her NDE
 
Do you know any scientific publication who critics Van Lommel's research?

From reading the article you linked to the research paper appeared to say that of 344 patients, 8-12% reported near death experiences - lights/tunnels etc.

Most of the rest of the linked article appears the be the opinion of ABCNEWS' Medical Editor Dr. Tim Johnson .... and various other people. If the journalist writing the piece was so inclined he/she could have gotten any number of opposing opinions.

The claim that 8-12% of people who die and are resussitated see weird lights and tunnels seems entirely reasonable.
 
pjh said:
The claim that 8-12% of people who die and are resussitated see weird lights and tunnels seems entirely reasonable.

I agree, but it's not the only thing he claims.

Sorry, I tought this was known by most of you, but you should read "Skeptical Investigation" (who is a proponent anti-skeptic website).

There is this article from Van Lommel on Skeptical Investigation:

Reply to Shermer - Medical Evidence for NDEs

You'll see there what I mean ;)
 
I agree, but it's not the only thing he claims.

Sorry, I tought this was known by most of you, but you should read "Skeptical Investigation" (who is a proponent anti-skeptic website).

There is this article from Van Lommel on Skeptical Investigation:

You'll see there what I mean ;)

The article dserves comments.I`m looking for something by Lommel.I`ll show you later
 
The article dserves comments.I`m looking for something by Lommel.I`ll show you later



The article dserves comments.I`m looking for something by Lommel.I`ll show you later

Here it is something i found at iands dot org:

comparison of the Swiss and English patients’ OBE accounts reveals these important differences:

Swiss Patient’s OBE English Patient’s OBE
Spontaneously reported viewing only part of body (legs and lower trunk) Spontaneous report implied viewing the entire body
Viewed body areas not involved in health concern and medical procedure (did not report seeing head or brain) Viewed body area involved in health concern and medical procedure (leg, cast, etc.)
Reported distortion of body image (legs became shorter; arm shorter) No reported distortion of body image
Reported illusion of bodily movement: legs and arm moving toward face; upper body moving forward No reported illusion of bodily movement

In a nutshell, the English patient’s experience seemed quite realistic, whereas the Swiss patient’s experience was unrealistic— fragmentary, distorted, and illusory. In fact, a thorough review by one of us (Holden) of three classic books reporting extensiveOBE research [Green (1968), Gabbard & Twemlow (1984), and Irwin (1985)] and one very recent review of the entire OBE research literature (Alvarado, 2000) reveals that the English patient’s OBE is quite characteristic of OBEs in general, while the Swiss patient’s is highly uncharacteristic. Regarding bodily distortion, for example, Holden found only one reference to bodily distortion during OBEs: a single instance reported by a person diagnosed with schizophrenia (Blackmore, 1986). Also Gabbard & Twemlow (1984, p. 118) after reviewing hundreds of OBEs, concluded that “body image disturbances [are] unusual” during OBEs, even though such disturbances are commonly experienced whenever we fall asleep or are just beginning to wake up from sleep.

The absence of body distortion in spontaneous OBEs is substantiated by another one of us (Long), who reviewed hundreds of first-person accounts of spontaneous OBEs and NDEs submitted to his research websites (www.oberf.org and www.nderf.org); none of them included either distortion of body image or illusion of bodily movement.

A second important difference revealed by comparing the Swiss and English patients’ experiences is the factor of lucidity, defined by Webster’s dictionary as “having full use of one’s faculties” and finding an experience “clear to the understanding.” Presumably, the Swiss patient would have been surprised or confused when, right after taking evasive action, the physicians discontinued electrostimulation and she found that her limbs were not at all where she had just perceived them to be. By comparison, the English patient’s description conveyed psychological continuity—his OBE perceptions were followed by perceptions in bed that confirmed each another—indicating that during his OBE he had full use of his faculties and found that experience clear to his understanding. He was lucid. Furthermore, Long reports that most spontaneous OBEs, and the great majority of OBEs within NDEs, reported to his website have involved lucidity.

This attribute of lucidity is related to Holden’s observation of reality in transpersonal experiences. Once a person has returned to everyday consciousness, they look back on their transpersonal experience as having been real, or at least potentially real. By contrast, after a dream or a hallucination, when people regain everyday consciousness they don’t say that the dream or hallucination was even potentially real. Presumably, the Swiss patient would concur that at least much of her outof- body perception was illusory rather than real. Conversely, the English patient, and most other spontaneous OBErs, have reported their sense that the experience was real. [An interested reader may review directly the many OBE and NDE accounts posted on the Internet at three sites, www.iands.org, www.oberf.org, and www.nderf.org, to see the striking difference between the experience described by the electrostimulated patient in the Nature article and the experiences of spontaneous OBErs].

* * * * *
 
Here it is something i found at iands dot org:

comparison of the Swiss and English patients’ OBE accounts reveals these important differences:

Swiss Patient’s OBE English Patient’s OBE
Spontaneously reported viewing only part of body (legs and lower trunk) Spontaneous report implied viewing the entire body
Viewed body areas not involved in health concern and medical procedure (did not report seeing head or brain) Viewed body area involved in health concern and medical procedure (leg, cast, etc.)
Reported distortion of body image (legs became shorter; arm shorter) No reported distortion of body image
Reported illusion of bodily movement: legs and arm moving toward face; upper body moving forward No reported illusion of bodily movement

In a nutshell, the English patient’s experience seemed quite realistic, whereas the Swiss patient’s experience was unrealistic— fragmentary, distorted, and illusory. In fact, a thorough review by one of us (Holden) of three classic books reporting extensiveOBE research [Green (1968), Gabbard & Twemlow (1984), and Irwin (1985)] and one very recent review of the entire OBE research literature (Alvarado, 2000) reveals that the English patient’s OBE is quite characteristic of OBEs in general, while the Swiss patient’s is highly uncharacteristic. Regarding bodily distortion, for example, Holden found only one reference to bodily distortion during OBEs: a single instance reported by a person diagnosed with schizophrenia (Blackmore, 1986). Also Gabbard & Twemlow (1984, p. 118) after reviewing hundreds of OBEs, concluded that “body image disturbances [are] unusual” during OBEs, even though such disturbances are commonly experienced whenever we fall asleep or are just beginning to wake up from sleep.

The absence of body distortion in spontaneous OBEs is substantiated by another one of us (Long), who reviewed hundreds of first-person accounts of spontaneous OBEs and NDEs submitted to his research websites (www.oberf.org and www.nderf.org); none of them included either distortion of body image or illusion of bodily movement.

A second important difference revealed by comparing the Swiss and English patients’ experiences is the factor of lucidity, defined by Webster’s dictionary as “having full use of one’s faculties” and finding an experience “clear to the understanding.” Presumably, the Swiss patient would have been surprised or confused when, right after taking evasive action, the physicians discontinued electrostimulation and she found that her limbs were not at all where she had just perceived them to be. By comparison, the English patient’s description conveyed psychological continuity—his OBE perceptions were followed by perceptions in bed that confirmed each another—indicating that during his OBE he had full use of his faculties and found that experience clear to his understanding. He was lucid. Furthermore, Long reports that most spontaneous OBEs, and the great majority of OBEs within NDEs, reported to his website have involved lucidity.

This attribute of lucidity is related to Holden’s observation of reality in transpersonal experiences. Once a person has returned to everyday consciousness, they look back on their transpersonal experience as having been real, or at least potentially real. By contrast, after a dream or a hallucination, when people regain everyday consciousness they don’t say that the dream or hallucination was even potentially real. Presumably, the Swiss patient would concur that at least much of her outof- body perception was illusory rather than real. Conversely, the English patient, and most other spontaneous OBErs, have reported their sense that the experience was real. [An interested reader may review directly the many OBE and NDE accounts posted on the Internet at three sites, www.iands.org, www.oberf.org, and www.nderf.org, to see the striking difference between the experience described by the electrostimulated patient in the Nature article and the experiences of spontaneous OBErs].

* * * * *

http://www.iands.org/research/important_studies/article_on_out-of-body_experiences_(obe).html

the whole response to skeptics. Not for the faint of heart
 

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