Philosophers On Ice

[Solitaire]

In far northern forests of Canada live wood frogs who spend their days in cool damp places. But unlike ordinary frogs who seek shelter from the cold in the fall, the wood frogs stay out and eventually freeze in place after the first winter cold snap. They remain dead all winter, hard as a brick, until the spring thaw, then a curious event happens. As the body of the wood frog warms, its heart begins pumping blood, its lungs start breathing again. Other organs start functioning as well. Finally, the brain starts working again. The wood frogs hop away as if nothing had happened.

When cold weather starts freezing a wood frog, its body produces an antifreeze that prevents the production of ice crystals that rupture cellular membranes. Its body also produces inhibitors that stop metabolism while the frog remains frozen. In fact a frozen frog can be sealed in a plastic bag, stored in a freezer for a few years, then when warmed up again, it will act just like a normal frog.

Eventually science one day will develop a technology that can freeze and revive a human being years later with no damage. When that day arrives we can finally answer the great mind-body question. A materialist waking up after years of being frozen discovers that he had dreams while being frozen, he will conclude idealism might have merit; likewise, an idealist waking up after years of being frozen discovers that he has no memories while being frozen, he must conclude that materialism works. Either way, philosophers will finally learn the truth and cease arguing the issue.

 

[Foolmewunz]

Actually, from the empirical evidence we have on philosophers' behaviour, if you got them all frozen, back through history, and they all revived at once, you'd have Socrates, Aquinas, Descartes, Kant, Kierkegard, Nietzsche, et al in a nice sylvan glade but they would all be dead (this time, permanently) within a week. They would all get so wrapped up in trying to convince the other as to how right they were that they would forget to eat and starve to death, leaving PETA their dream earth - the wood frogs would rule! 'Cuz they're not stupid enough to get caught up in the philosophical auto-eroticism!

 

[CplFerro]

Eventually science one day will develop a technology that can freeze and revive a human being years later with no damage. When that day arrives we can finally answer the great mind-body question....

Dear Solitaire,

Idealism doesn't mean one experiences postmortem hallucinations, it means there are sensorily invisible principles of action in the universe, like gravitation and cognition. Freezing and failing to experience hallucinations proves nothing, just as falling into a dreamless sleep proves nothing.

Cpl Ferro

 

[Solitaire]

Dear Solitaire,

Idealism doesn't mean one experiences postmortem hallucinations, it means there are sensorily invisible principles of action in the universe, like gravitation and cognition. Freezing and failing to experience hallucinations proves nothing, just as falling into a dreamless sleep proves nothing.

Cpl Ferro

I'm not sure if I understand idealism.
I assumed an idealist views himself as a bit of a ghost in the universe.
It raises questions like: Can an idealist be born? Can an idealist die?
If so then idealism will look suspiciously like materialism.

 

[CplFerro]

I'm not sure if I understand idealism.
I assumed an idealist views himself as a bit of a ghost in the universe.
It raises questions like: Can an idealist be born? Can an idealist die?
If so then idealism will look suspiciously like materialism.

Dear Solitaire,

Idealism goes at least as far back as Plato, with the notion that visible objects are manifestations of invisible perfect ideas about those objects.

If I have a strawberry before me, for instance, it is obviously real and whole. Yet if I eat half of it, the "real and whole" strawberry has vanished, leaving only a scrap of itself. Idealism here would say that the "real and whole" strawberry continues to exist, but only as potentiality, and no longer as actuality. The half-strawberry (and the half in my gut) each have their own potentials that, until I finally digest the matter, have been made actual.

Before a thing can exist, the potential for it to exist must exist. That's the idealism that I reference.

Cpl Ferro

 

[JamesDillon]

Dear Solitaire,

Idealism doesn't mean one experiences postmortem hallucinations, it means there are sensorily invisible principles of action in the universe, like gravitation and cognition. Freezing and failing to experience hallucinations proves nothing, just as falling into a dreamless sleep proves nothing.

Cpl Ferro

If I understand the opening post correctly, the point is that during this state of suspended animation, there is literally no brain activity. Standard materialism would suggest that if there is no brain activity, there can be no perceptions-- the "self" would experience literally nothing during the duration of the suspension. Idealism (and for that matter, dualism), on the other hand, suggest that the self is a non-physical entity entirely distinct from the body; its perceptions are therefore not strictly dependent on brain activity. I think Solitaire's point is that, if you can have mental activity without brain activity, then it can't be the case that the self we perceive is nothing more than the physical interaction of neurons. That sounds right to me. I'm less sure about the reverse-- that if we don't remember any mental experiences during suspended animation, that means that materialism must be true. An idealist might say that perhaps we did have the experiences, and just don't remember them, or maybe the self goes into hibernation when the body does even though it is independent. Still, it seems as though the fact that we have no mental experiences when brain activity is shut down would at least be evidence in favor of materialism, though not conclusive.

 

[Kopji]

The amphibians cannot survive if their body temperature drops below about 20° Fahrenheit (–6° Celsius). But snow pack and other natural insulators can keep the frogs sufficiently warm during their winter hibernation.

Not quite a brick of frog.