Pentaquarks

[ctamblyn]

I'm a little bit confused at this point. I thought it had already been settled that stimulating interest in physics and deepening our understanding of nature were justification enough for HEP research.

 

[ctamblyn]

Anyway, as it turns out research at CERN has led to useful technologies, particularly in medical imaging. PET scans have been mentioned twice now in this thread (but seemingly missed), and there is lots more going on at CERN which benefits medical research. For example:

A miniature accelerator to treat cancer

Taking biomedical research at CERN to the next level

CERN to produce radioisotopes for health

ClearPEM clarifies breast cancer diagnosis

Clinical trials using carbon ions begin at CNAO

ISOLDE to produce isotopes for medical research

 

[Belz...]

Now, quarks are strange (cough, cough) enough they have their charms and I'm sure one of our more physics-oriented members can explain more.

What a colourful description.

 

[rjh01]

PET scans in hospitals. Directly developed from results found by colliders.

Reading this link below shows that new elements were made by colliders. These new elements could then be used in PET scans.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3653214/

 

[rjh01]

I see you move goal posts , so when Fermi built the pile that was just application? No testing was involved to refine theory, ever.

Nope and when the Manhattan Project discovered critical mass values and cross sections that wasn't research just applications? No chemistry was invented just to make the separation of uranium isotopes either.

No moving of goal posts. As I said in my previous post that project was applied research. That means that they were told to find out how to build bombs. Everything they did, like what you mentioned was to achieve that end. Once they had built two bombs they were used.

 

[rjh01]

Anyway, as it turns out research at CERN has led to useful technologies, particularly in medical imaging. PET scans have been mentioned twice now in this thread (but seemingly missed), and there is lots more going on at CERN which benefits medical research. For example:

A miniature accelerator to treat cancer

Taking biomedical research at CERN to the next level

CERN to produce radioisotopes for health

ClearPEM clarifies breast cancer diagnosis

Clinical trials using carbon ions begin at CNAO

ISOLDE to produce isotopes for medical research

Thank you. This is the sort of post I was after.

 

[zooterkin]

I wonder what is the point of this? I know it has employed a lot of highly intelligent people, used a lot of valuable resources. So what is the payoff? Have other LHCs provided one for example?

Other LHCs? How many do you think there are?

 

[Dancing David]

No moving of goal posts. As I said in my previous post that project was applied research. That means that they were told to find out how to build bombs. Everything they did, like what you mentioned was to achieve that end. Once they had built two bombs they were used.

That is sort of a simplification of what happened?
So it seems to me that you are engaging in false dichotomy and a fallacy of construction.

You do understand that until the Trinity explosion no one was quite sure it would work, even though Fermi's pile had produced heat and they were measuring and estimating approaches to critical mass. That is called experimentation.

they did not just say 'lets separate uranium isotopes' and poofo had the chemistry to do so, there was a lot of experimentation involved.

The data on fission, nucleus cross sections and neutron absorption was not an application, it was experimentation...

 

[Corsair 115]

Jeopardy version.

"Pentaquarks."
"What would the name of Quark's establishment on Deep Space Nine be if he was running it with his four brothers?"

 

[rjh01]

That is sort of a simplification of what happened?
So it seems to me that you are engaging in false dichotomy and a fallacy of construction.

You do understand that until the Trinity explosion no one was quite sure it would work, even though Fermi's pile had produced heat and they were measuring and estimating approaches to critical mass. That is called experimentation.

they did not just say 'lets separate uranium isotopes' and poofo had the chemistry to do so, there was a lot of experimentation involved.

The data on fission, nucleus cross sections and neutron absorption was not an application, it was experimentation...

All this experimentation was to find the facts they needed to build the bomb. It was not 'lets just find the facts for their own sake.' It had a specific aim.

 

[EHocking]

...There will be more invented particles on the way. Just wait until they want to make the LHC even bigger.

They could call it the EBLHC.

Or do you mean that we should wait "until" 2006 when the upgrade of the LHC was planned?

They will dig into some outdated 1960's "physics" papers and go, "hey we predicted this! Look! We're not absolutely full of ****** You gotta believe us!"

I thought this crowd was comprised of actual skeptics? Irony at its finest.

I'm finding it hard to spot any irony here.
Are you saying that we are not being sceptical enough wrt the results of LHC experiments, or are you actually saying that elementary particles are mere inventions by physicists scamming governments for grant money?

 

[zooterkin]

Well, I saw Dr Jon Butterworth speaking about the LHC on Saturday, and they do have an interesting bump on the graph that could be a new particle, but it's too early to be sure, it could just be noise.

ETA: Oh, and he wrote this, recently, on the topic of the thread.

I began the article asking “What does a pentaquark mean for you?” Maybe the answer is “Not too much, directly”. Certainly at least one columnist in this paper regularly insists that the money we spend on exploratory science is a frivolous waste, when we could be spending it on prisons, medicine, art or practically anything else I presume. However, it won’t be a surprise to you that I am of the strong opinion that allocating an amount (a small fraction of a percent at present) of our resources to such things is not only fun and interesting, but a worthwhile investment too, given the inherently unpredictable nature of exploration.

Pentaquark discoveries have been claimed before; I was involved in one of them myself a few years ago, though we didn’t claim that the bump we saw was definitely a pentaquark, and whatever it was, the bump was nowhere near as clear as those seen by LHCb. I think the force is strong with this one.

 

[zooterkin]

There will be more invented particles on the way. Just wait until they want to make the LHC even bigger.

They can't. They can increase the power one more time, up to the planned maximum. Beyond that, they will need to build a larger collider.

 

[abaddon]

Reading this link below shows that new elements were made by colliders. These new elements could then be used in PET scans.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3653214/

Try reading it again. No new elements were mentioned. Even if they were, colliders cannot be used to produce and collect them. That isn't what they are for. The theories developed from the results, however, can be used elsewhere as seen in the PET. The underlying physics was developed in Fermilab and the collider in NY (whose name escapes me right now)

You requested practical applications for collider research. You have been given a quite important one.

 

[rjh01]

Try reading it again. No new elements were mentioned. Even if they were, colliders cannot be used to produce and collect them. That isn't what they are for. The theories developed from the results, however, can be used elsewhere as seen in the PET. The underlying physics was developed in Fermilab and the collider in NY (whose name escapes me right now)

You requested practical applications for collider research. You have been given a quite important one.

Fermilab is not mentioned in the article. Neither are colliders. If they are not mentioned in an article about PET scanners, that indicates that neither are relevant.
I have finished with this topic. You had the opportunity to show me something. You failed. You could not even quote me a passage to support what you are saying. You could not even find the article. I found the article. In short I did my best to prove your case for you and all what you have are empty words.

 

[zooterkin]

Fermilab is not mentioned in the article. Neither are colliders. If they are not mentioned in an article about PET scanners, that indicates that neither are relevant.

Then why on earth did you link to the article, and say that new elements were created by colliders?

 

[zooterkin]

I have finished with this topic. You had the opportunity to show me something. You failed. You could not even quote me a passage to support what you are saying. You could not even find the article. I found the article. In short I did my best to prove your case for you and all what you have are empty words.

You can't have looked very hard, this shows up as the first result when I google for "PET scan collider".

 

[abaddon]

Fermilab is not mentioned in the article. Neither are colliders.

Why should they be mentioned? The article is about medical use not historical origins.

If they are not mentioned in an article about PET scanners, that indicates that neither are relevant.

See above.

I have finished with this topic.

Concession noted.

You had the opportunity to show me something. You failed. You could not even quote me a passage to support what you are saying.

I did not think it necessary to spoon feed you. Are you differently abled when it comes to google?

You could not even find the article. I found the article. In short I did my best to prove your case for you and all what you have are empty words.

Kindly do not attempt to pin your poorly written citation on me.

A little reading for you about Fermilab and it's activities.
https://www.fnal.gov/pub/presspass/factsheets/pdfs/Benefits_FactSheet_020714.pdf

Was that so difficult?

How about...https://www.fnal.gov/pub/science/particle-physics/benefits/index.html

Gosh, how careless of Fermilab to leave such information right on their own website. Who would have thought to look there for this kind of information?