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Penn & Teller ignorant of Ben Stein's movie

EeneyMinnieMoe said:
Penn Jillette was actually on Larry King's show with Ben Stein about two weeks before that movie came out. Along with Sean Austin, Kal Penn and Amy Irving? (Who's idea was that lineup?!)
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I'm guessing the theme there was "celebrities with political leanings of one sort or another"? Kal Penn has publicly endorsed Obama, while most people know what Sean Penn thinks about...well...everything. Amy Irving I can't speak to, although the internet tells me she votes Democrat. (Thanks, Google.)

I'd actually defend Ben Stein, too. He's a very accomplished and intelligent man and I'll always remember in his finest movie appearance, as the economics teacher in Ferris Bueller's Day Off. :p
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He never really reached that high again, did he?
 
I never saw "Expelled" advertised on TV, nor have I seen a billboard or any print ad. When I asked a few of my co-workers about it, none of them had heard of it.

I know about it from reading the JREF forum, and seeing a few articles on skeptical or science related internet sites. This isn't a movie that is breaking all records. If I still had kids at home or was still involved with all the orgs I used to be involved with, I wouldn't have time for even these, and likely the existence of the movie might have gone completely unnoticed. I am not an ignorant person.

Ben Stein might have politics or viewpoints you don't agree with, but he is a very educated and intelligent person. He has a law degree (regardless of what you think of lawyers, you still have to have some intelligence to get through it), and is an economist. He advises on stocks, has had character roles in movies - but that's not his 'career'. He is known as being one of the intellectuals in Hollywood where a lot of 'movie stars' are high school drop-outs. He also happens to be a practicing, non-secular Jew, which I add to refute posts I read elsewhere referring to him as a Christian fundie. I used to read a column he wrote, which was about his life with his son and wife, his grandparents and their life in Europe, the shallow people he meets in Hollywood, and so on. He comes across as witty, honest, and likable. From what I read about the movie, I would of course strongly disagree with his position, but I can't speak negatively about him as a person or throw the word 'stupid' at him.

And I don't think less of two very-harding working entertainers because they are not current on B-grade movies.
 
wahrheit said:
I was a fellatioist when I was younger. I collected STDs.
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Ooooh! So close, but yet so far. Try it as...

"I was a phallusist (the homonym makes the pun) when I was younger. I collected STDs."


Back to your regularly scheduled bickering.
 
I know all about Ben Stein's educational achievements and his work as both a lawyer and speech-writer. I've read his columns in the NY Times in the Sunday business section for years and used to watch his television quiz show "Win Ben Stein's Money".

I used to admire & respect him.
Now I just think he's pathetic.

Richard Dawkins is usually asked "How can there be excellent scientists who are also biblical literal-ists?" Dawkins speculates that these people have compartmentalized their brain and do not subject their religious beliefs to the same rational scrutiny that they apply to their scientific research.

IMHO, Ben Stein is an EXCELLENT example of such a phenomenon. Although... I admit that given some of the things he's said (the famous "science kills" comment and stating a causal link between Darwinian natural selection and Nazi atrocities), I believe he's had some psychological breakdown.
 
Nor will he ever reach the popularity of his brother, Beer Stein.
 
Geek Goddess said:
I never saw "Expelled" advertised on TV, nor have I seen a billboard or any print ad. When I asked a few of my co-workers about it, none of them had heard of it.

...

And I don't think less of two very-harding working entertainers because they are not current on B-grade movies.
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It's not about staying current on movies. I think every skeptic on the JREF forum knew about it and I'm guessing that most of everyone in the creationist/ Intelligent Design camp knew of it. If you stay current on skepticism, I'm sure you'd know of it (or the controversy and coverage over it) one way or another.

Even outside of the skepticism, I would have know about it due to advertising, the movie playing at a nearby Clearview's and the media coverage over it, such as Richard Roeper's column on it.

If there wasn't some kind of misunderstanding or it wasn't feigning ignorance, I'm very surprised Penn and Teller didn't know about it.
 
dansam said:
Dawkins speculates that these people have compartmentalized their brain and do not subject their religious beliefs to the same rational scrutiny that they apply to their scientific research.
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When did Dawkins get his degree in psychology and sit down with these scientists for therapy sessions?

Geek Goddess said:
And I don't think less of two very-harding working entertainers because they are not current on B-grade movies.
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You're being charitable for two reasons in the bolded part.
 
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My impression...Penn totally knew what you were talking about, but for whatever personal and/or professional reasons, totally blew you off. Kinda like when somebody tries to talk about me and says..."you know your drunk ass friend, skepHick said something that makes me want to kick her ass," my friends will say "What, Skeppie? She's awesome and smart and everybody loves her and I have no idea what you're talking about."
 
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Darat said:
I don't - you seem to be mixing me up with someone else.
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Darat, this reply is really out there.

I directly replied to your post. It was your direct quote, "There is no evidence in this thread that supports the conclusion that Penn believes in ID" in the same post replying to me which sounded like you were refuting something you thought I had said.

And because I had not made such a claim I asked you if that was directed at me: "Or was only the first part of your post here directed at me?"



Darat said:
Can you please deal with what I've posted and not try and lump me in with someone else? I have no idea what Claus is discussing with you, perhaps you are confusing my statements with his and that's why you've got confused over what I've posted?
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Again, I directly replied to your quote and only mentioned Claus because he made the same false charge.

Darat: "No you didn't support your conclusions you explained them. Quite different things although often people act as if they aren't."

Skeptigirl: "Re the claim you and Claus are making that I didn't support my conclusion,....."

How that isn't clearly replying to your post is beyond me.
 
skeptigirl said:
He didn't. Penn merely unskeptically vouched for Stein without any curiosity about what dansan was asking about.
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And yet, you said this:

skeptigirl said:
And thank you for sharing your exchange with Penn. It illustrates the fact some skeptics are not as interested in the problems that lack of critical thinking imposes on society. We are not necessarily all required to care about skeptical causes while still considering ourselves skeptics. But still, for Penn to defend Stein without any knowledge of the movie is not consistent with critical thinking.
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What views of Stein's did Penn "vouch for"?
 
CFLarsen said:
And yet, you said this:



What views of Stein's did Penn "vouch for"?
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This is another one of your language issues, Claus. Why would "defend" have to mean, "defend a view"? Penn defended Stein in general. He cited Stein's intelligence. In essence, Penn defended Stein's views without even knowing what those views were.
 
skeptigirl said:
This is another one of your language issues, Claus. Why would "defend" have to mean, "defend a view"? Penn defended Stein in general.
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No, no: You added:

skeptigirl said:
But still, for Penn to defend Stein without any knowledge of the movie is not consistent with critical thinking.
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You are clearly linking what you call Penn's defense of Stein with Stein's movie. Then, you are not saying that Penn defended Stein in general.

skeptigirl said:
He cited Stein's intelligence. In essence, Penn defended Stein's views without even knowing what those views were.
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That is your interpretation. You are clearly jumping to a conclusion that the evidence doesn't support.
 
UnrepentantSinner said:
When did Dawkins get his degree in psychology and sit down with these scientists for therapy sessions?
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It does not take a degree in psychology to come to this conclusion, if for no other reason than Dawkins may have read the works of psychologists who did examine scientists with creationist beliefs and found their arguments convincing.

Alternatively, he could have arrived there on his own. Certain creationist beliefs simply do not stand up to rational scrutiny however one looks at them. Therefore, if one meets a scientists who has performed excellent research, one can come to one of two conclusions: that the scientist has achieved on the scientific front without critical thinking skills, or he has not applied these skills to his creationist beliefs. I believe in most cases the latter is true, although I also believe that the true scientific method is far less driven by critical thinking than most scientists wish to believe.
 
phyz said:
True enough. I was economizing and establishing symmetry, so the introduction of "appeal to authority" didn't appeal to me. If that threw anyone off the point I was making, apologies.

ETA: And thanks, Zooterkin, for living up to your title of "Nitpicking dilettante." :)
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You're welcome. ;) Sadly, it's not something I have to work at, it comes naturally. I may one day graduate to making substantial contributions.
 
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