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Penn & Teller: "Fool Us" and My Bragging Rights

I was a little annoyed with the Kimlat bit as well. If only because he's known for one thing only, and that's what fools them?

There is a slight real life chance that they simply were not aware that some people are that good at culling half a deck, not being move monkeys themselves, but it is stretching my credulity.

Not realizing Kimlat used a cull is like not guessing that Annemann uses a billet switch or that Aaronson might have memorized a deck...

But is it enough for P/T to guess the way the trick was done, or do they actually need to see the actual move?

I'm thinking back to the Shawn Farquhar episode when Teller Penn says something about discussing with the producers about what would constitute "fooling them", and if I remember correctly they said "if we saw a move we shouldn't have seen".

If that is true, even if they know that Kimlat uses culling, as long as he does it well enough so that they can't see the moves they would be fooled. And it would in my view be an even greater accomplishment, in that they know what too look for, and still couldn't see it.
 
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But is it enough for P/T to guess the way the trick was done, or do they actually need to see the actual move?

I'm thinking back to the Shawn Farquhar episode when Teller says something about discussion with the producers about what would constitute "fooling them", and if I remember correctly they said "if we saw a move we shouldn't have seen".

If that is true, even if they know that Kimlat uses culling, as long as he does it well enough so that they can't see the moves they would be fooled. And it would in my view be an even greater accomplishment, in that they know what tool look for, and still couldn't see it.

My general understanding* as to how You Tool P & T is that they have to admit they don't know how the trick is done. Knowing how it is done, but not seeing the performer's "moves", is a sorta grey area but usually is not considered to be fooling.
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* That and $4.00 CDN will get you a small cup of coffee at Starbucks here in town.
 
My general understanding* as to how You Tool P & T is that they have to admit they don't know how the trick is done. Knowing how it is done, but not seeing the performer's "moves", is a sorta grey area but usually is not considered to be fooling.
Thanks!

(and it was of course Penn, not Teller that said what I quoted in my post, but that would probably be obvious to everybody here... )
 
The amount of ass kissing they do to performers irks me,when some are clearly rubbish dated boring acts.
Take the illusionist couple on this week,he had that many layers on he looked like incredible Hulk,could have hid Vegas showgirl cast inside his coat! His wife looked ridiculous in her "role" as the un-glamorous assistant.
"Really good act" "Just brilliant" etc etc ,i mean why not just call a spade a spade(no racist pun intended)and say "Your act is dated and boring"
To finish off...a rope magician! All it was short of was a rabbit from a hat and maybe linking rings.
The scrabble trick was good though.
 
I was disappointed with the entire episode. All the acts were poor quality and boring and obvious. Good magic requires at least one of mystery (how did he or she do that?) and elegance (wow! that was done well). I saw neither.

Even the usually cryptic clues weren't at all cryptic. (Lap and magnetic come to mind.)
 
The amount of ass kissing they do to performers irks me,when some are clearly rubbish dated boring acts.
Take the illusionist couple on this week,he had that many layers on he looked like incredible Hulk,could have hid Vegas showgirl cast inside his coat! His wife looked ridiculous in her "role" as the un-glamorous assistant.
"Really good act" "Just brilliant" etc etc ,i mean why not just call a spade a spade(no racist pun intended)and say "Your act is dated and boring"
To finish off...a rope magician! All it was short of was a rabbit from a hat and maybe linking rings.
The scrabble trick was good though.

I think they're obviously running out of acts. Four or five acts a week goes through a lot of B-List conjurers in two seasons. But I do think they're taking it easier on the acts in Las Vegas than they did in the first season from the UK. I think it's a combination of behind-the-scenes developers, old buddies or guys who they know from the circuit who've paid their dues and they want to give 'em a little break?

We get a lot of magic on TV here. I guess it's easy to sub-title quickly and the visuals don't need translation. The worst is a show from LA, Masters of Illusion. The best, currently, is Wizard Wars... but that's by my taste because I like to see the creative process, even if they haven't got the technical wrinkles and camera angles worked out. Second best? Right now it's a tie between JB Benn's Magic Man (even if I know the tricks, I like close-up work and he's very smooth) and the second season of Fool Us.

Very close in awfultude to Master of Illusion is Ben Hanlin/Tricked. I don't like pranks, I don't like bad disguises and I don't like Hanlin. People like him, though... so maybe it's just me.
 
I only caught the rope act from this week, and I agree it was not impressive and that the "magnetic personality" was dumb. I was, however, ready to forgive it as it was a young performer, and P&T were obviously (apparently?) just giving a kid a break.

Reference Masters of Illusion: I completely agree it's rubbish.

Wizard Wars is more interesting but does not quite get over the hump for me.
 
Been youtubing some of these to play spot the switch or similar - I'm not very good at it.

The one that annoyed me most was a dual reality thing with a tap on the shoulder done so much more clumsily than I've seen it before that I realised how it was done. Which I hadn't before.


The hours of practice required to be good at this stuff is awe inspiring.
 
I was pleasantly surprised to see Shin Lim on the show. I knew he was going to fool them before he even got started, Guy is unreal with his stuff.
 
I only caught the rope act from this week, and I agree it was not impressive and that the "magnetic personality" was dumb. I was, however, ready to forgive it as it was a young performer, and P&T were obviously (apparently?) just giving a kid a break.

Reference Masters of Illusion: I completely agree it's rubbish.

Wizard Wars is more interesting but does not quite get over the hump for me.

Agreed with all of this.

I do enjoy the concept of the show, but if the goal is really to fool P&T they need to do a better job of screening the applicants.

Being a fan, but not a practicing magician I have to say I have learned a lot from the "hints" that Penn gives to the losers, and I'm pretty sure I spotted all the moves done by some card trick guy on America's Got Talent. I don't think I would have spotted them without the knowledge I've gained.
 
Jay Sankey has a video posted where he brags about fooling Penn and Teller, even though he didn't say so on the show. His claim is that he used different methods and "fooled" them by pretending to use standard methods. So, in effect, the cons them by misleading them - not by "fooling" them with the trick, but tricking them anyhow.

It's actually pretty sad.

 
Is he really claiming that the manual (slit-on-back-of-box) Rising Card is his invention? It sounds like he's actually trying to import the idea that he invented it as a "third variation" just to fool them.

That's ridiculous, of course. There are demos of the rigged box that date back seven/ten years and I'm sure it was in books before it hit the internet.

I think the "trick" here is that he performed some stuff that's pretty standard fare and regardless of which solution they observed, he can just say, "Ha ha! I didn't use that method at all." In their first season there were a couple of times when Jonathan Ross declared them fooled because they surmised one method and the conjurer had used another. I thought that was a bit of a reach; this is even more so.

This is just post hoc face-saving. Maybe he was getting negative comments and his big concern is his book sales so he felt he had to find a way to claim victory. He was there to sell the sparkler trick. It's pretty good but obviously requires a special deck. Whether he really ditched in the two obvious ditches is not significant. The point is that even if they caught the wrong ditch, they know how the trick was performed. When you have three or four solutions for a particular move, unless your performance is themed "Figure out which slight I used along the lines, there", the issue is knowing how the effect came about, not which of the methods were employed.

Magicians may differ; this is obviously my lay person's interpretation.

The most important element, though, is that it's disingenuous to say you just wanted to be polite. To Penn Jilette? The guy makes his living calling things ********. (censor-speak for bovine feces) The show is about fooling Penn & Teller. Numerous contestants have disputed their findings and they've acknowledged them as "Foolers". If the solutions were conceptually/philosophically different from P&T's answer, the "man in the booth", who's a respected conjurer, can re-confirm. Aren't they required to explain the trick to that guy ahead of time? I can't find anything on the protocols of the show.

It's possible he was jerking them around. I remember seeing the episode and wondering why he was doing mundane stuff like the Rising Card, when they've seen that five thousand times. Ditto the deleted trick. It's just a variation on a trick done by every Harry Anderson barroom hustler in the world. I think it was deleted because it was such standard fare. Again, "here's a trick that others perform one way or another and I've chosen a third" doesn't "Fool Us", unless the bit is put forth as "Seemingly Boring Stuff That You Won't Be Able to Figure Out How I Performed". When P&T do those kind of tricks in their shows, they reveal to the audience where the hanky and panky took place. If that was his intent, then his judging session should've included that.
 
When did Penn Jillette turn into David Letterman with a black wig and goatee?
 
I don't know anything about this Sankey guy, but if he fooled them by making them think he did it a certain way, and actually doing it a different way, I don't think that is something that Penn & Teller would object to. In fact, I know that Teller at least would think that is great.

Here is Teller (yes, Teller) describing a trick someone did for him, where the magician fooled him because Teller is a magician.

 
I don't know anything about this Sankey guy, but if he fooled them by making them think he did it a certain way, and actually doing it a different way, I don't think that is something that Penn & Teller would object to. In fact, I know that Teller at least would think that is great.

Here is Teller (yes, Teller) describing a trick someone did for him, where the magician fooled him because Teller is a magician.


Nice!

"Always expect the unexpected." :cool:
 
The beginning of Sankey's video is not nearly as offensive as I thought it'd be. As for the throw-offs, "leading spectators down the garden path," I have no problem with them provided you later do something that cancels out such methods. The problem with this, of course, is that if magicians can eliminate one method, then they will more than likely be able to deduce the correct method.

In other words, it's perfectly OK to give the impression that you have an object held in palm. Let them believe that you're palming something, but at one point, show your hand open and empty. Don't plunge it into your pockets.

Some of my favorite tricks are the kind where people think they have a method and then you explode it. Effect: the performer fans through the cards face up, casually says, "they're all different, right?"
"Yes."
"Say 'stop' whenever you want."
A card has been chosen and the magician again emphasizes, "You could have picked any card you wanted, right?"
"Yes."
The magician removes four cards from the pack, explaining that "each will tell me something about your card." These cards are flipped over one at a time, and each of them match the selection! Despite the previous confirmation that "all of the cards are different," and the spectator had a free-choice, the scallywag magician is using multiple duplicates. It's evident the spectator did NOT have a free choice! Then the fun moment comes: "this trick doesn't use four [whatevers]. It uses the four aces." And then the selection apparently vanishes and we see all four cards as different aces.

Exploding false solutions is fun. It's not fun when you leave those solutions hanging.

Maybe it was the UK show, but Fool Us had a couple Swedes on and they were performing some trick as a duo where (I believe) a playing card ended up in one of their duct-tape covered pie-holes. When the signed card is removed from the mouth with tongs, there's a suspicious action long-associated with a move popularized in Sankey's Paperclipped. It looks exactly like a switch, which I think is what Penn & Teller guessed. The guys said they did not use ad switch, in which case they did a pretty crappy magic trick.

I can do a trick where a spectator removes a card from the deck. The deck is shuffled. I explain that I can look at each of the remaining cards and deduce, in less than thirty seconds, the identity of the selection. There are multiple ways of accomplishing this effect, and I would be remiss if I did not 1) make it clear that it's a free selection; 2) make it clear that I have not seen the back of the card. Otherwise I could use a variety of methods, and the typical layperson will believe that it's a marked deck.

That situation with Teller in Egypt is different than the one with Sankey It's the difference between giving and taking. The cups and balls magician was giving; he did the trick for Teller. Sankey was taking; he performed for bragging rights.
 
Jay Sankey has a video posted where he brags about fooling Penn and Teller, even though he didn't say so on the show. His claim is that he used different methods and "fooled" them by pretending to use standard methods. So, in effect, the cons them by misleading them - not by "fooling" them with the trick, but tricking them anyhow.

Coming back to this, this seems impossible, given new information (not that it ever seemed credible, you understand). There was one act either in the last episode or the one before where Penn & Teller thought they'd figured out how the trick was done. The act in question wasn't sure and asked them to elaborate and seemed on the verge of accepting that they had got it right, when Allison Hannigan got a voice in her ear from the judges backstage who, apparently, listen in on Penn & Teller's conversation, saying that he had in fact fooled them.

So unless his claim is that he lied to the producers backstage (who have to know how it was done in order to ensure that everything is fair), then he can't be telling the truth because he'd have won no matter what he chose to admit. And if he did lie to the producers backstage, then he couldn't have chosen on air to reveal that he'd actually won if he'd wanted to, because the producers would have called him a liar.

As for the other thing that's been discussed in this thread - that they appear to be running out of magicians, if that's true then I think it's a shame that there have thus far only been 2 female magicians in 3 series. Surely there must be more than 2 competent female magicians in the whole world?
 
What's with Allison Hannigan and the 'dress'?
Is this a first in the history of entertainment TV, where a woman would not have a different outfit at every opportunity?
 
What's with Allison Hannigan and the 'dress'?
Is this a first in the history of entertainment TV, where a woman would not have a different outfit at every opportunity?

They probably film a bunch of episodes in one day.

Steve S
 
So unless his claim is that he lied to the producers backstage (who have to know how it was done in order to ensure that everything is fair), then he can't be telling the truth because he'd have won no matter what he chose to admit. And if he did lie to the producers backstage, then he couldn't have chosen on air to reveal that he'd actually won if he'd wanted to, because the producers would have called him a liar.

I didn't know this and Sankey doesn't mention it. Might it be that because Sankey did a "flurry" of stuff that the end result was a mixed bag and not a binary choice?

In any case, I still think Sankey is an ass.
 
As for the other thing that's been discussed in this thread - that they appear to be running out of magicians, if that's true then I think it's a shame that there have thus far only been 2 female magicians in 3 series. Surely there must be more than 2 competent female magicians in the whole world?

It's not clear if this was hyperbole, but there were more than just two in the first two years (the third year hasn't started airing over here, yet). I can recall four or five, not counting the "partners"; I think there was one team where the female was old school t&a-window-dressing but most were actual conjurers.

But they do note every time there's a female performer that there simply are very few in the profession. I think on Wizard Wars there were only two memorable women contestants and one of 'em got hired to be on the Wizards Panel.
 
What's with Allison Hannigan and the 'dress'?
Is this a first in the history of entertainment TV, where a woman would not have a different outfit at every opportunity?

It is different that she wears the same dress but I think it is brilliant. Hannigan is an attractive woman with the Buffy background that makes many of us like her, She is perfect for the show. She is attractive but not distractedly so. She is wonderful at being the audience member the magicians use. She is perfect for her part wearing the same outfit for each magician.
 
It's not clear if this was hyperbole, but there were more than just two in the first two years (the third year hasn't started airing over here, yet). I can recall four or five, not counting the "partners"; I think there was one team where the female was old school t&a-window-dressing but most were actual conjurers.

Looking at Wiki, it seems you're right and I'd been forgetting some. It is true, however, that there's just the one in series 3 - Angela Funovits.
 
Same regularity as Alyson Hannigan has worn a different dress :)
My point, exactly, though to be clear, I don't really know if he wore different suits. If he did, they were all at least similar.

Ah, well. :)
 

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