Merged Pearl Harbor: "Revisionists" vs. "Traditionalists"

[mikegriffith1]

I really,really, miss Gawdzilla. He would have eaten manifesto for Breakfast, and still be hungry..

Actually, I caught Gawdzilla in a number of rather bad errors. And go back and read his "answers" on the Hoover-Ladd FBI memos, wherein we read that days after the attack the head of Army Counterintelligence, Col. Bissell, advised an FBI Special Agent "in the strictest confidence" that Army CI had known--from Japanese intercepts--nearly the "complete plans" of the attack on Pearl Harbor several days before it occurred, and that Bissell was very worried about what would happen if the the Army found out that he had revealed this information to the FBI. What makes these memos especially crucial is that they were never intended to be public. No one but Hoover, Ladd, Early, and FDR were supposed to see them.

Defenders of the traditional story have been rather silent about these memos. To dismiss them would seem to require the positing of highly unlikely, unprecedented scenarios.

 

[Major Major]

I just remember informing the Apollo hoax posters, the one who boasted he regularly nailed to the floor Apollo experts with his incisive, clear-cut proofs of a hoax, to do so at the World Science Fiction Convention, where such experts would be available.

For some reason the speakers at the convention spoke and departed unnailed.

Is this a premonition?

Now that is irony, HB's proving their beliefs at a Science Fiction Convention.

Where there would be a number of technically skilled and knowledgeable people who would be able to rebut the hoax without breathing hard. I've seen them; it's hardly just fat kids in Starfleet costumes.

 

[bknight]

Where there would be a number of technically skilled and knowledgeable people who would be able to rebut the hoax without breathing hard. I've seen them; it's hardly just fat kids in Starfleet costumes.

I like the precision that some have in dissecting HB's claims. I have a amassed a fair amount of direct evidence.

 

[SpitfireIX]

Actually, I caught Gawdzilla in a number of rather bad errors. And go back and read his "answers" on the Hoover-Ladd FBI memos, wherein we read that days after the attack the head of Army Counterintelligence, Col. Bissell, advised an FBI Special Agent "in the strictest confidence" that Army CI had known--from Japanese intercepts--nearly the "complete plans" of the attack on Pearl Harbor several days before it occurred, and that Bissell was very worried about what would happen if the the Army found out that he had revealed this information to the FBI. What makes these memos especially crucial is that they were never intended to be public. No one but Hoover, Ladd, Early, and FDR were supposed to see them.

Defenders of the traditional story have been rather silent about these memos. To dismiss them would seem to require the positing of highly unlikely, unprecedented scenarios.

No. Others in the thread pointed out reasons why the memos can't be taken at face value.

Where are the corresponding Japanese transmissions? The FBI memos refer to a Japanese transmission made about Nov 25 that, once translated contained the plans for the attack on PH. The problems with this are:

A. The plans for the attacks on PH, the Phillipines and Hong Kong were not transmitted by radio due to their length (the orders for PH and the Kido Butai went to over 80 pages);
B. The plans were sent out by the Japanese at the beginning of November, not just as the fleet was sailing. The logistics of these operations are not something where they could be made up on the fly;
C. Where are the records of these intercepts that the G2 allegedly translated?

And finally, when governments don't want something made public, they don't make records with relatively low levels of classification. They do it all by word of mouth.

The 12/11/41 Ladd memo also has some interesting details that bobtaftfan seems to have left out of his quote. Right after the part he reproduced, Ladd tells Hoover:

A message was sent by Army radio to the Hawaiian islands, setting forth this entire plan for the information of the authorities in Hawaii.

On Friday morning, December 5th, the code words referred to in the previous messages as the signal for the attack were intercepted, which should have indicated that the attack was to be on either Saturday or Sunday, and this information was sent by military radio to the Hawaiian islands.

If these messages existed, they definitely aren't evidence for Washington's foreknowledge of the Pearl Harbor attack that was withheld from Short and Kimmel, since the very FBI memos he's citing say explicitly that the contents of those messages were passed on to the military authorities in Hawaii (ie, Short and Kimmel!). The memo even talks about an inquiry being directed towards "whether the message...was not acted upon by the military authorities [in Hawaii]."

Funny how bobtaftfan left those parts out.

Fail.

 

[catsmate]

Actually, I caught Gawdzilla in a number of rather bad errors.

Ehh, no.