Peace

[elliotfc]

It's been fun. Tired of doing the hit and run thing, my free time really has to be devoted to research these days.

Thank you everyone, I've learned much in the time I have spent here. I've tried to be devil's advocate and tried to articulate a different way of viewing the world. I did the best I could. That individuals in this forum took the time to discuss topics with me is indicative of your engaging, thoughtful, and honest approach to thinking about religion and philosophy.

In the past, as in just a couple months ago, I felt, I guess, sorry for the whole skeptic mindset. To define yourself (or be defined) in opposition to something else implies dependency. And when you try to come up with words to define yourself (Dennett's brights) it's just a bit ridiculous. But that was an unfair estimation. You are all quite sustainable on your own, not just as a reaction to other beliefs.

I accept completely that certain people have a scientific requirement for evidence that forms the foundation for what they accept as objective truth. My opinion about that does not take away from the intellectual legitimacy of that.

That many of you seem to glory in the evils of religion is something that I feel the same about now as I did a month ago. Anyone can judge something or someone at their worst, and to use that as validation is pathetic. To co-opt names like Yahweh is unfortunate. When I saw people intentionally poke fun at the feelings of honest persons searching for truth and meaning it angered me, and I think such behavior is contemptible. I spent several hours today in the company of fellow religious believers. I saw beauty and love. That probably would not interest the majority of persons in this forum. Maybe you should consider this.

Seeing Ruby's appeal really got to me. That she would come to this forum for support and help speaks volumes about the quality of persons here. I'm sure you are all decent people. I could judge you on your particular obsessions or idiosyncracies, but when push comes to shove you all mean well.

Truth, love and beauty. That's what matters. You can find those things in religion if you want to find them. You can also find the hateful, the ugly, and lies. It's all about what you bring to the search. That is why it is so essential that religion claims to have transformative powers. My particular faith continually demands conversion. It's not just something that happens once a year. It never ends. If Christianity can't make us into better people then it is a sterile religion. But please understand that you have to bring a pure and gentle heart to the table. If you don't, evil desire can be reinforced and manifest in despicable actions.

Thanks everyone, and I apologize for the moments when I was sarcastic and rude or mean. Consider those primal reactions from a feeling of being outnumbered.

-Elliot

 

[Gulliamo]

Well put.
Its been real. Please drop back by when you can. Its nice to hear outside opinions that are well spoken.

 

[Eos of the Eons]

Hmm, at least you don't judge so harshly now. Thanks for that.

Problem with religion for a lot of people is that the ugly side and lies etc. found them even though they weren't looking for it. You can ignore all that and all the people that have been hurt and just look for the good if you want. At least now you understand how that isn't something some people can just do after their experiences. It's like taking drugs. Keep taking it and you're fine and feel good. Ignore the harm, but in time it will catch up with you one way or another. Then try to quit. It's killer, but not as deadly as staying with the drug. Some people can drink like alcoholics all their lives and don't feel it's hurting them one bit. They ignore the hit in their wallets and separation from reality...feeling it's better to be where they are.

This is how it is for some. To others, well, I don't know how-but it works. Religion does something for them. It's like anti-depressants-they help some, but everyone is different and need a different type of anti-depressant. Some people aren't helped at all by any existing anti-depressant and/or therapy.

I have found my peace where I'm at and am much happier not sitting around listening to someone trash talk non-christians. Being told by my church not to be friends with non-christians got my alarm bells going. This type of attitude leads to strife-not peace.

Skepticism isn't hard headed stubborn rebellion behavior. It is the search for truth in proof. I can't believe that drinking some water with a very dilute concentration of whatever ingredient will cure me of cancer. How can you blame me?

http://www.vmyths.com/hoax.cfm?id=91&page=3
(no cure for anti-christ virus-a cure for atheism story)

So hey, if being with fellow worshippers does it for ya, then all the power to you. I feel more at home here.

What research are you doing?

 

[Pahansiri]

Hello my new friend elliotfc.

May you be well and happy, safe and free and do great this year in school and all things.

Have for yourself and all living things loving kindness, respect and compassion.

If there ia a God as you believe in it's concern would be that it's children have a belief in all beings and loving kindness, respect and compassion for themselves and all living things.

For me I do not believe this being would have an ego so would have no need or require a belief in "him" etc.

That is how a truly loving father is.

I respect what you believe and you my friend be well.

 

[Ladewig]

I spent several hours today in the company of fellow religious believers. I saw beauty and love.

I am glad for you and wish you peace. Please enjoy the company of those people.

 

[arcticpenguin]

Thanks for dropping by. I hope you don't mind if I got a chuckle out of your taking offense at the "argument from ignorance" thing. Maybe you could brush up on your fallacies and formal logic if you come back.

Truth, love and beauty. Sounds great. The thing is, there are many religious folks who try to claim that all good things, such as morality, come from religion. But you and I know that we can find truth, love and beauty with religion or without it. Or you can find ugliness, hurt and lies. So then, If you can find either outcome with or without religion, how can it be claimed that religion is a source of good, let alone the only one?

Also - you dropped into our 'boxing ring'. We have discussion here and it's no holds barred. You don't see us having fun with our friends or being good to our families. If you only exposure to us is here in the ring, theat will influence your view of us.

 

[Yahzi]

I've tried to be devil's advocate and tried to articulate a different way of viewing the world

What you failed to realize (and hopefully now understand) is that we are not ignorant of your different way. We understand it fine. We just reject it.

In the past, as in just a couple months ago, I felt, I guess, sorry for the whole skeptic mindset. To define yourself (or be defined) in opposition to something else implies dependency.

The problem with the dialectic is that it is a two-way street. You also define yourself as opposition to something else: namely, atheism. I know you disagree, and I agree: I'm just pointing out how silly this idea is. Neither of us is defined by mere opposition.

We feel equally sorry for people like you, who are defined by fantasies.

And when you try to come up with words to define yourself (Dennett's brights) it's just a bit ridiculous.

No argument there. I'm holding out for Illuminatii! Or, my own invention: Literati.

You are all quite sustainable on your own, not just as a reaction to other beliefs.

This seems to contradict what you just said, above.

I accept completely that certain people have a scientific requirement for evidence that forms the foundation for what they accept as objective truth.

And you have a different requirement for evidence. A non-scientific one. A non-empirical one. A non-rational one.

That's really our whole point.

When I saw people intentionally poke fun at the feelings of honest persons searching for truth and meaning it angered me, and I think such behavior is contemptible. I spent several hours today in the company of fellow religious believers. I saw beauty and love. That probably would not interest the majority of persons in this forum.

You realize you just committed the crime you just complained about, right?

Truth, love and beauty.

Indeed, we all agree. The only - I stress only - difference is how we uncover truth. We think it has to be done empirically, rationally, scientifically. You don't.

That is why it is so essential that religion claims to have transformative powers... But please understand that you have to bring a pure and gentle heart to the table.

When you start contradicting yourself in the same paragraph, it's a good time to go.

 

[arcticpenguin]

Truth, love and beauty. That's what matters.

That's a cute phrase, but does it really mean anything? Suppose you couldn't have all three. Suppose you could have truth, or you could have love and beauty. Which would you choose? If your 'love and beauty' are based on lies, are they really worth anything?

 

[Yahzi]

The more normal phrasing would be, Truth, Beauty, and Good. Those are the three proper topics of philosophy.

I would consider Love to be a product of the above three.

 

[ceo_esq]

To the principles of truth, beauty and goodness, I might add unity - which traditionally rounds out the foursome.

Elliotfc, thanks for all your reflections. Hopefully you haven't made your last contribution here.

ceo_esq