PC vs MAC

[merentha]

Thus the iPod haters never mention the name of their preferred player.

But I've already mentioned my Sony. Apart from the software's lack of drag-and-drop, a problem shared by the iPod, it doesn't have the iPod's many shortcomings. It has a more intuitive interface with separate volume control, supports more music formats, has way longer battery life and is cheaper. It lost out to the iPod due to poor marketing on Sony's part.

OTOH, Sony doesn't depend heavily on their mp3 players to keep the company afloat, unlike Apple. The downside to this is that Sony's product cycles are notoriously short as the company focuses its energy on new product lines. It doesn't position itself as a direct competitor to Apple and the iPod. That is Creative's role.

 

[cyborg]

Any MP3 player that treats the storage like a hard drive - AS IT DAMN WELL SHOULD - gets my vote.

I shouldn't have to use some crappy piece of proprietary software that is full of bugs, only works on Windows and will never be upgraded. Sony is the worst offender from what I've heard here, although the iPod is also an offender. One of the reasons I will refuse to buy one.

 

[Ian Osborne]

AI shouldn't have to use some crappy piece of proprietary software that is full of bugs, only works on Windows and will never be upgraded. Sony is the worst offender from what I've heard here, although the iPod is also an offender. One of the reasons I will refuse to buy one.

I hear what you're saying, but the iPod's music management software, iTunes, is not Windows-only, not full of bugs and is certainly not never updated. It's a doddle to use, and it's a great way of organising your tunes.

 

[progressquest]

I hear what you're saying, but the iPod's music management software, iTunes, is not Windows-only, not full of bugs and is certainly not never updated. It's a doddle to use, and it's a great way of organising your tunes.

I think cyborg is saying that he shouldn't have to use any software provided by the manufacturer. I am really tired this morning, so I could have mis-read it, but I think he is arguing that he should be able to install and use the playing/management software of his choice.

 

[Almo]

I think the dell wins on everything except the optical drive (although it appears they both fail by only haveing one).

Except that the Dell has a crap OS.

 

[Jekyll]

In short, LaTeX has become equivilent to a proprietary format because very little new software supports it beyond software specifically written to target that niche market.

PostScript, and now PDF, is the standard.

But latex is a language for writing PS and PDF files, not for distributing finished documents. You're comparing apples and apple trees here.

 

[Almo]

Any MP3 player that treats the storage like a hard drive - AS IT DAMN WELL SHOULD - gets my vote.

I shouldn't have to use some crappy piece of proprietary software that is full of bugs, only works on Windows and will never be upgraded. Sony is the worst offender from what I've heard here, although the iPod is also an offender. One of the reasons I will refuse to buy one.

iPod can be used as storage. It's just that it won't play music out of the storage. I think this is Apple's nod to the music industry in exchange for support on iTunes. Given that Apple's DRM is pretty loose, I'm not complaining about it.

 

[cyborg]

I think cyborg is saying that he shouldn't have to use any software provided by the manufacturer. I am really tired this morning, so I could have mis-read it, but I think he is arguing that he should be able to install and use the playing/management software of his choice.

Indeed.

A choice between iTunes Windows and iTunes Mac if I want to update my iPod on a Linux machine is not a choice.

An MP3 player that acts as generic storage? Yes please. Compatible with anything that understands FAT drives.

 

[cyborg]

I think this is Apple's nod to the music industry in exchange for support on iTunes. Given that Apple's DRM is pretty loose, I'm not complaining about it.

Yes I'm sure it is. That changes nothing. I have no reason to thank Apple for this. I do not want to be told I have to jump through a series of corporate hoops just to use the device. Relying on the benevolence of corporations is a bad bet in my book.

 

[Ducky]

Yes I'm sure it is. That changes nothing. I have no reason to thank Apple for this. I do not want to be told I have to jump through a series of corporate hoops just to use the device. Relying on the benevolence of corporations is a bad bet in my book.

There are open source alternatives that work with ipods in the ways you refer to. If you have a mac, it is portable through compiling from source, or the Fink or Macports projects.

I don't know what open source alternatives are available for windows.

 

[jimlintott]

Well LaTeX is generally used for legacy reasons.

It was the only decent methodology for printing higher math equations and the like for a long long time. The developer of LaTeX is sort of a personal hero of mine (Donald Knuth) so don't think I am at all biased againt it when I say that the time of LaTeX has come and gone. If you still use LaTeX it is probably for compatability reasons and not because its somehow superior to other formats.

In short, LaTeX has become equivilent to a proprietary format because very little new software supports it beyond software specifically written to target that niche market.

PostScript, and now PDF, is the standard.

The only time there is ever an arguement about proprietary standards is when competiting formats actualy have a decent share of support (such as GIF vs PCX) and various software does not agree on the prefered format.

If MSWORD's document format was used by all then there would be no beef. Obviously there are competing word processor formats and most non-MS software does not support it... so there is a beef. A beef that is really just a cry for help because there isnt a standard but there very well should be.

The same is true of MAC vs PC. There should be a standard. Unfortunately, Apple fans seem to think that their minority voice should win out.

I belive Knuth wrote Tex of which LaTex is an extension of.

It is a good example of a non-proprietary format. It is a markup language that is openly documented and all anyone needs to prepare a LaTex file is a text editor. Of course you need the latex program to process that file but it is freely available for most platforms.

As it is simply a markup language saved in plain text there is no way to lose your document. At the very worst you can strip out the tags and you are left with a plain text copy of your document. Of course XML also saves you this way.

A proprietary file format is one where you have to have software that can decode the information from a binary file. Don't know the encoded scheme or have no software that does and you can't access that document.

Plain text may be the only truly industry wide document standard. Underappreciated in my opinion. Also one of the reasons I like using *nix. The well documented plain text configuration files in the /etc folder is so much more sane than MS Windows registry.

 

[cyborg]

Plain text may be the only truly industry wide document standard.

Well, as long as you don't worry too much about your line feeds or encoding schemes

 

[rockoon]

I belive Knuth wrote Tex of which LaTex is an extension of.

Ah you are correct.

A proprietary file format is one where you have to have software that can decode the information from a binary file. Don't know the encoded scheme or have no software that does and you can't access that document.

Plain text may be the only truly industry wide document standard. Underappreciated in my opinion. Also one of the reasons I like using *nix. The well documented plain text configuration files in the /etc folder is so much more sane than MS Windows registry.

You obviously have a really screwed up view of what a properietary format is. All files (even text files) require software needed to decode information in the file.

A text file is meaningless without a decoder which converts the bits into human readable symbols. The fact that there is a standard is what makes it non-proprietary.

It doesnt matter what the specific mapping of bytes to symbols is as long as we all agree. If Joe Minority used a different mapping then the rest of us, then Joe Minority's format would be proprietary.

Under your definition:

All graphics formats are proprietary
All audio formats are proprietary
All document formats are proprietary

and infact:

Under your definition all files formats, now and forever in the future, are proprietary.


This sort of thing extends well beyond computers. Standards and standards riding upon standards is the foundation of a civilizations infrastructure.

In America we have the 110 volt (a standard unit of measurement) electricity standard, which runs to a standard wall outlet, a standard plug connects to the outlet to provide power to a myriad of electronics. Inside the electronics are standardized modules placed on PCB's. The electronic device is made from a standard plastic, or coated with a standard paint, and the whole thing conforms to a standard electromagnetic noise limitation.

Imagine a society where there was no standard wall outlet or no standard voltage.

I re-iterate my previous point:

It is the fact that there are competing standards that creates the frustration in regards to document formats, audio formats, archive formats, graphics formats, and so forth.

 

[Terry]

There are open source alternatives that work with ipods in the ways you refer to.

This is true, and my iPod has never seen a Windows or OS X machine.

 

[tsg]

There are open source alternatives that work with ipods in the ways you refer to. If you have a mac, it is portable through compiling from source, or the Fink or Macports projects.

I don't know what open source alternatives are available for windows.

I use gtkpod with my Mini. Works great. Although I did cheat and reformat it to FAT from a Windows machine first. But I understand it is possible to do that under Linux or even leave it in the original format.

 

[Wavicle]

Well LaTeX is generally used for legacy reasons.

It was the only decent methodology for printing higher math equations and the like for a long long time. The developer of LaTeX is sort of a personal hero of mine (Donald Knuth) so don't think I am at all biased againt it when I say that the time of LaTeX has come and gone. If you still use LaTeX it is probably for compatability reasons and not because its somehow superior to other formats.

Wow. That's quite a statement. If you search around for math Ph.D. programs you will probably be suprised at the number that REQUIRE Ph.D. students to learn LaTeX. I've seen some that even provide their own LaTeX templates/classes for theses. If you browse through math journals you'll see in many (probably most) articles the unmistakable signatures of the AMS-LaTeX classes for type setting equations.

I know a good number of people who would argue, quite fervently, that LaTeX is used precisely because it is superior to ALL other formats (I'm not one of those).

In short, LaTeX has become equivilent to a proprietary format because very little new software supports it beyond software specifically written to target that niche market.

A proprietary format must be owned by a proprietor and possessed as intellectual proprietary. That's what makes it proprietary. Microsoft's .doc format IS proprietary because it is Microsoft's IP and they only license it (all open implementations of .doc have been reverse engineered). LaTeX is NOT proprietary because its format is open and free.

PostScript, and now PDF, is the standard.

If you think that, you completely misunderstand LaTeX. LaTeX is a type setting LANGUAGE. PostScript is a page layout language. PDF... I dunno what I want to classify that as, it's probably a type-setting format, but I am not sure it qualifies as a language.

If MSWORD's document format was used by all then there would be no beef. Obviously there are competing word processor formats and most non-MS software does not support it... so there is a beef. A beef that is really just a cry for help because there isnt a standard but there very well should be.

For better or worse, MS Word's format probably would be THE standard except that it is proprietary. The whole reason ODF exists is there was a desire for a non-proprietary document format.

 

[rockoon]

Wow. That's quite a statement. If you search around for math Ph.D. programs you will probably be suprised at the number that REQUIRE Ph.D. students to learn LaTeX. I've seen some that even provide their own LaTeX templates/classes for theses. If you browse through math journals you'll see in many (probably most) articles the unmistakable signatures of the AMS-LaTeX classes for type setting equations.

Not suprisingly, the academic circles are way behind the times. You are correct that many acedemic papers are still written in TeX, but why is that? Is it because its the best methodology or is it because its what professors want?

If I was going to appeal to authority on a technology related subject, I wouldnt be appealing to professors. I'd appeal to people who make it their business.

A proprietary format must be owned by a proprietor and possessed as intellectual proprietary. That's what makes it proprietary. Microsoft's .doc format IS proprietary because it is Microsoft's IP and they only license it (all open implementations of .doc have been reverse engineered). LaTeX is NOT proprietary because its format is open and free.

You can mince if you want. The arguement I was addressing was that proprietary formats don't work everywhere. I have demonstrated that that is not a fundamental limitation of being proprietary, and further that 'open' formats do exhibit that limitation.

If you think that, you completely misunderstand LaTeX. LaTeX is a type setting LANGUAGE. PostScript is a page layout language. PDF... I dunno what I want to classify that as, it's probably a type-setting format, but I am not sure it qualifies as a language.

Typesetting and page layout are very closely related. With the comming of the digital age true typesetting is an obsolete methodology, replaced completely by the more general (and more powerful) desktop publishing. The driving force behind this transition was Adobe and its Page Maker software.

The age of desktop publishing is over 20 years old now and the shortlived need for computer aided typesetting has come and gone. To stay on thread topic, it was the Macintosh which popularized desktop publishing.

Typesetting -> Phototypesetting -> Photosetting -> Desktop Publishing

Typesetting came and went.

 

[Yllanes]

Not suprisingly, the academic circles are way behind the times. You are correct that many acedemic papers are still written in TeX, but why is that? Is it because its the best methodology or is it because its what professors want?

It is the standard in theoretical physics and mathematics because it is the best way to do it. Nothing else gets even close for writing technical papers or books. If you don't think so, go to the arXivs, open a random paper and tell me a better way to write it (the papers there are preprints, drafts if you will, the final versions in journals are reset, also with some flavour of TeX). All you need to reproduce those papers is a text file.

People who make it their bussiness to publish physics books and journals also choose LaTeX. Check Elsevier or Springer, for example, two huge companies. They typically provide LaTeX templates for their different publications.

 

[Wavicle]

Not suprisingly, the academic circles are way behind the times. You are correct that many acedemic papers are still written in TeX, but why is that? Is it because its the best methodology or is it because its what professors want?

I'm going to bet you've never had to set a lot of equations using both LaTeX and Word/Page Maker. It's used because the amount of time and effort it takes to produce a quality academic paper using LaTeX is a fairly small fraction of what it would take with Word or Page Maker.

If you have to typeset large numbers of equations, it would be folly to use anything other than LaTeX. The AMS-LaTeX classes were written by mathematicians for mathematicians. Seriously, you are arguing that Adobe's offering is a superior tool for laying out equations for print than LaTeX? That's a very tall order.

Oh heck, just read the wikipedia entry http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LaTeX

If I was going to appeal to authority on a technology related subject, I wouldnt be appealing to professors. I'd appeal to people who make it their business.

That was a seriously dense thing to say. Do you know what 'publish or perish' means? A professor at a research university lives and dies by the amount of research papers he produces. Who are the people who make it their business to produce papers with lots of equations in them? LaTeX is widely used throughout academia because high quality papers are produced with relative ease, once you have been trained in TeX.

You can mince if you want. The arguement I was addressing was that proprietary formats don't work everywhere. I have demonstrated that that is not a fundamental limitation of being proprietary, and further that 'open' formats do exhibit that limitation.

Saying TeX is proprietary or equivalently so is just silly. The basic essence of proprietary is that it is held and licensed by some entity. It also demonstrates that you really don't know what TeX is. If TeX is proprietary because of the small number of tools which work on it, then the C programming language must be proprietary because so many more tools work on the compiled result.

Typesetting and page layout are very closely related. With the comming of the digital age true typesetting is an obsolete methodology, replaced completely by the more general (and more powerful) desktop publishing. The driving force behind this transition was Adobe and its Page Maker software.

Why don't you define 'more powerful.' I think TeX would have you starved for examples unless 'more powerful' means 'I can hit a button and make all this text italicized!'

The big advantage of the program you mention is the amount of training needed to use it. Page Maker and TeX perform the same job, but the target audience is decidedly different. Very few trained TeX users would switch to Page Maker because there is nothing they can do in Page Maker that they can't do faster in TeX.

 

[merentha]

Any MP3 player that treats the storage like a hard drive - AS IT DAMN WELL SHOULD - gets my vote.

I shouldn't have to use some crappy piece of proprietary software that is full of bugs, only works on Windows and will never be upgraded. Sony is the worst offender from what I've heard here, although the iPod is also an offender. One of the reasons I will refuse to buy one.

Like I said, the proprietary software is the only problem where Sony doesn't work better than the iPod. My player can double as a harddisk when plugged into the USB port, but I need the Connect software if I want to transfer the music files.

FYI, I've never had a problem with the Connect software, even on my old 5-year-old PC, and Sony does update both their software and the player's firmware.