“Paranormal Challenge Irregulars”

[Jon.]

Lawyer eh?

There might be a paranormal claim in there somewhere. Something about proving you're human....




(wink)

While I have sired two children with a human woman (scientist, so that should meet your criteria!) I suppose I'll have to wait for one of them to spawn in order to prove that I am indeed human. I'll be making my Challenge Application in twenty to thirty years. I'm reasonably confident the million won't have been won by then.

 

[webfusion]

The use of the Forums to enlist subjects for the Challenge has already been nixed by KRAMER -- (see: Jak Keeran)

The only instance I recall where a forum participant actually tried to make contact directly with an applicant was NiallM with Mr Carey in Ireland.
A local pub in Mr Carey's hometown was suggested as the meeting point.

Needless to say, that encounter never took place.

 

[Admiral]

The use of the Forums to enlist subjects for the Challenge has already been nixed by KRAMER -- (see: Jak Keeran)

That case was very different. In Keeran's case, they were trying to find subjects to test for the preliminary. Of course KRAMER would want to select those subjects secretly and properly.

This is completely unrelated to the preliminary. In this case there is no need for secrecy- its purpose is to get properly skeptical individuals in contact with the applicant so they can observe his test.

 

[Kochanski]

It is a well-intentioned idea, but I think it is unwise. If they can not follow the rules, can not fill out the application correctly and can not get affidavits signed then there is no reason for Kramer to waste his time with them. It seems like he has his hands full when they can even manage to get through the preliminary of filling out the application correctly.

I am amazed that none of them actually seem to ask questions or look for assistance when they are having problems with the basics of filling out the application.

Just my two cents.

Oh, if we want to see where in the world everyone in the forum is, a Frappr map is a cool place to start: http://www.frappr.com/ It would be fun anyway.

 

[rjh01]

Oh, if we want to see where in the world everyone in the forum is, a Frappr map is a cool place to start: http://www.frappr.com/ It would be fun anyway.

See http://clustrmaps.com/counter/maps.php?url=http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums

You wish and you will receive.

 

[NiallM]

The use of the Forums to enlist subjects for the Challenge has already been nixed by KRAMER -- (see: Jak Keeran)

The only instance I recall where a forum participant actually tried to make contact directly with an applicant was NiallM with Mr Carey in Ireland.
A local pub in Mr Carey's hometown was suggested as the meeting point.

Needless to say, that encounter never took place.

Exactly what I was thinking when I read this thread.

In his case, I made the offer to smoke him out. He lived in my area; JREF had no real way of making it easier for him to sit a preliminary (the closest people to him being in Dublin), and he was wriggling around that requirement - the ususal excuses about not being able to fit in with their schedule etc etc.

I offered to witness his efforts on an informal basis - and in no way as a representative of the JREF.

I think that it worked. It demonstrated that he was in no manner amenable to be tested. It acted as a barrier between him and the Irish Sceptics group, whome he'd been messing around; it also took him away from bothering the JREF and wasting their time.

I'm not sure that it is necessary to form even a loose grouping of individuals to run pre-prelimn tests of applicants.

At the same time, we each of us have the freedom - despite what Kramer may say - to offer our services and advice to any applicant. The risk of getting involved with a flake is ours, and the we explicitly do not represent the JREF.

In Carey's case, he was seen to be unable to commit to a demonstration to someone who was basically on his doorstep. This threw his refusal to be available for a preliminary into even greater relief, and made his position even more clear than continued hassling of the JREF and the IS group would have managed. It saved them time too.

I'd do it again in the same circumstances.

 

[kedo1981]

There would of course have to some kinds of “personal” limits set by the individual PCI.
I sure wouldn’t want to sit around and listen to some psychotic retard rant about his kuntdileeni (mis spelling completely on purpose) or hear a faith healers tale tales.
I might walk around a field for couple hours (on a pleasant Sat. morning) with a dowser, or listen for an improvement in sound fidelity because of crystal energized speaker cable (only 29.95 at a radio shack near you).
You have to admit, if you ( I mean most of the folks who frequent these forums) found out the a person wanting to take the challenge lived two houses down from you, you’d go check um out.

 

[Gayle]

This idea is one I would lobby against because I see it as creating more problems than it would solve.

If a person has a paranormal ability that they can actually demonstrate, they will have no difficulty in astounding and amazing people in their local community. There is no shortage of helpful and believing people, even among the ranks of the professionals.

If an applicant can't practice their art and organize demonstrations on their own in order to find people to sign affidavits, they won't be able to negotioate and follow through on a protocol. They will be wasting everyone's time.

I can see no benefit at all in hand-holding an applicant who can't organize him or herself well enough to get in on winning a million dollars.

And who's going to vet the Irregulars? Joining a forum dedicated to skepticism does not confer skeptical thinking powers upon us. Some forum members seem willing to believe anything. Would they qualify as Paranormal Challenge Irregulars? Some of them have high post counts ... does that qualify them? Or would KRAMER have to figure out some other system of deciding who would and wouldn't make the Irregular list?

I think people around here just enjoy torturing poor KRAMER ... as if he doesn't get tortured enough just reading his mail.

 

[NiallM]

Well then you miss the point.

It's not about acting for JREF; it's not about claiming some sort of scpetical qualifications; it's not about being organised by Kramer.

It's very much the opposite.

It's about keeping people off Kramer's back. It's about distributing the wasted time so that not all of it is wasted by JREF or regional sceptical organisations.

It's also about the simple fact that if I want to assess someone's abilities I can do so without the sanction of JREF or anyone else.

I obviously cannot award them a million bucks, but I am certaily free to evaluate their caim on my own terms, or on terms agreed with them by me.

And f that happens to reduce the load on JREF, then all teh better.

Remember, the sort of applicants we're speaking of are the elusive ones that seem never to be available for a test.

 

[Ducky]

Well then you miss the point.

It's not about acting for JREF; it's not about claiming some sort of scpetical qualifications; it's not about being organised by Kramer.

It's very much the opposite.

It's about keeping people off Kramer's back. It's about distributing the wasted time so that not all of it is wasted by JREF or regional sceptical organisations.

It's also about the simple fact that if I want to assess someone's abilities I can do so without the sanction of JREF or anyone else.

I obviously cannot award them a million bucks, but I am certaily free to evaluate their caim on my own terms, or on terms agreed with them by me.

And f that happens to reduce the load on JREF, then all teh better.

Remember, the sort of applicants we're speaking of are the elusive ones that seem never to be available for a test.

Kramer gets paid to "waste" his time in this respect. He's more than capable, and more than adept enough to handle this himself.

 

[kedo1981]

There should be no claim evaluation
Only a statement to the effect
“This person seems to believe that they have some paranormal ability”
Or perhaps “this person did something that I could not explain by non scientific means”
Not an endorsement

 

[Gayle]

I do get the point of the Paranormal Challenge Irregulars. The point is that forum members want to help and they want in on the action ... the good, the bad and the ugly. The point is to be part of something.

There's nothing wrong with that. It's a fine motive.

Just don't do it in a way that could be miscontrued by anyone, including a mental patient, as having the blessing of the JREF. If you want to do it, do it on your own hook. Put up a firewall between yourselves and the JREF. Open a yahoo message board or something.

As fowlsound says, KRAMER is more than capable and is adept at handling himself. If KRAMER wants help or if he thinks this is a good idea, he'll let us know, after consulting with Randi, when Randi recovers. KRAMER is no shy violet. If he wants us to take work off his back, he'll tell us. So far, he hasn't ... ever ... to my knowledge. My impression is that KRAMER is a fiend for work. Of course, I could be wrong. But I don't think so.

And please notice that KRAMER displays compassion for some of the more disturbed applicants, urging them to start with their medical doctor or therapist. He does that for a reason. It's a kindness. Or so it seems to me.

Gayle

 

[NiallM]

I do get the point of the Paranormal Challenge Irregulars. The point is that forum members want to help and they want in on the action ... the good, the bad and the ugly. The point is to be part of something.

There's nothing wrong with that. It's a fine motive.

Just don't do it in a way that could be miscontrued by anyone, including a mental patient, as having the blessing of the JREF. If you want to do it, do it on your own hook. Put up a firewall between yourselves and the JREF. Open a yahoo message board or something.

As fowlsound says, KRAMER is more than capable and is adept at handling himself. If KRAMER wants help or if he thinks this is a good idea, he'll let us know, after consulting with Randi, when Randi recovers. KRAMER is no shy violet. If he wants us to take work off his back, he'll tell us. So far, he hasn't ... ever ... to my knowledge. My impression is that KRAMER is a fiend for work. Of course, I could be wrong. But I don't think so.

And please notice that KRAMER displays compassion for some of the more disturbed applicants, urging them to start with their medical doctor or therapist. He does that for a reason. It's a kindness. Or so it seems to me.

Gayle

Nope, the point isn't to be part of anything.

What is the reason that most people come to JREF? In my case, it was to read what was happening in the sceptical community, and to keep informed as to what was currently making news. But get this, the JREF doesn't own the trademark to sceptical thinking.

If I wish to communicate with an applicant who joins the forum and arrange to validate his or her claims, I am perfectly free to do so, without requiring the imprimatur of Kramer or anyone at all in JREF.

If the thread where I offered to see Carey's claims for myself is still around, you will see several things:

I made crystal clear to him that I was in now way representing the JREF, but that if he could demonstrate his claims I would enthusiastically promote them.

There had been some messing around with his availability for a preliminary test. I was offering to break that logjam to the extent that my efforts might at least allow the Irish Sceptics and JREF to persistwith more commitment with the claim. It also has to be said in this respect that the relationship between Kramer and Carey had broken down - probably irretrievably. My view was that an honest broker - and one virtually on his doorstep - might break the impasse.

As I expected when I made the offer, the net result was to demonstrate that the applicant had no intention of having his claim examined by anybody. Thus, the absurdity of his belief was thrown into even sharper relief.

I don't see any problem with members of the forum offering to act as witnesses and being prepared to provide affidavits if the claimant demonstrates their claim beyond their ability to explain it. The affidavits would probably need to reflect that the person signing it in no way acts for, or an agent of, JREF, and doesn't acknowledge the claim's merits other than as stated: that the witness wasn't able to explain what happened. That is obvious to everyone here.

The net reult of this would be that claimants would have access to non-JREF people for the purpose of obtaining affidavits, and the witnesses would be able to take advice first and to later describe all that happened. More info for the JREF, and a non-JREF asset being available to eliminate the affidavit excuse as well ensuring better quality affidavits.

 

[NiallM]

Kramer gets paid to "waste" his time in this respect. He's more than capable, and more than adept enough to handle this himself.

That doesn't prevent anyone assessing claims for free.
Remember, the JREF very deliberately publicises the claims - including the claimant's name. They don't own the claimant, and the act of publicising the name means that they really have no right to expect that everyone else is obliged to leave the applicant alone.

JREF appears to be quite bullish on this point, so they can hardly complain at anything that happens with the applicant's claim information, or how it is used.

 

[drkitten]

Well then you miss the point.

It's not about acting for JREF; it's not about claiming some sort of scpetical qualifications; it's not about being organised by Kramer.

And you miss my point, which is, not to put too fine a point on it, that no matter how many times you claim not to be acting for JREF, challenge applicants will still assume that you are acting in some sort of official capacity.

And they will be very annoyed when Kramer doesn't realize that, in their strongly and vocally-held opinion, they have already been tested and that he is obligated simply to write them the check without further ado.

It's about keeping people off Kramer's back. It's about distributing the wasted time so that not all of it is wasted by JREF or regional sceptical organisations.

I agree that we are under no obligation to play Mother-may-I with Kramer or Randi. If I want to go looking for Froot Loops, I can find them by the box.

However, if the reason we are doing this is to keep people off Kramer's back, I think we should think very seriously about whether our actions are likely to further our goal, or hinder it. I think that the most likely result of this kind of informal tests, "for affidavit purposes only" will be to increase Kramer's workload. I'll go out on a limb here and guess that a full 50% of the applicants tested "for affidavit purposes only" will not understand that clause and think that the affidavit test is actually the Randi Challenge. I will go even further out on the limb and predict that of the people who understand they still need to go through Kramer, 50% won't understand the need for further protocol negotiation and refinement after the informal pre-preliminary test.

And most if not all of these people will end up in a lengthy, inflammatory discussion with Kramer filled with threats of legal action.

I understand your desire to help Kramer. But one fights fire with water, not paraffin.

 

[NiallM]

If they fail to understand - despite it being stated explicitly in agreement with them (and acknowledged by them with their signature) that nothing I do will further their claim beyond *possibly* helping them towards the affidavit goal, then they're hardly going to undertsand negotiating a real protocol.

You make things explicit. You write them down. You obtain their witnessed signature. You keep it. The affidavit that you sign - in the event that they display their claims working - includes a disclaimer with respect to your non-JREFness. This means that all bases are covered. If they use your affidavit, they also show JREF that they accept that you are not a JREF agent. If they don't use your affidavit, they have found three other witnesses, and they must submit to the process as normal anyway. If they attempt to use the previous test at stage, they are told "No. that test was performed by non-agents, and is irrelevant to JREF. Additionally, the application was incomplete at that stage and is finally complete as and of now (affidavits being received), and as per the rules, only now will JREF commence with preliminary testing". Finally, their only legal proof that they proved themselves in front of witnesses would be the affidavits - all of which absolve the JREF of any role.

Yes, it requires that people be careful.

But that's all.

 

[Hitch]

I have a question for potential “Paranormal Challenge Irregulars” who support this idea. Do you have the professional qualifications that Kramer and the JREF are looking for in a person signing an affidavit? If so, are you willing to risk that professional reputation by claiming to believe applicants have or can demonstrate seemingly paranormal abilities in public? (Possibly repeatedly for different applicants?)

I think part of the reason they specify “professionals” is they want people with some accountability at risk to vouch for the applicant. I’d worry about anyone who’s willing (or worse eager) to risk his or her professional reputation. It would almost be a case for rejecting any affidavit signed by a “Paranormal Challenge Irregular.”

 

[NiallM]

I have a question for potential “Paranormal Challenge Irregulars” who support this idea. Do you have the professional qualifications that Kramer and the JREF are looking for in a person signing an affidavit? If so, are you willing to risk that professional reputation by claiming to believe applicants have or can demonstrate seemingly paranormal abilities in public? (Possibly repeatedly for different applicants?)

I think part of the reason they specify “professionals” is they want people with some accountability at risk to vouch for the applicant. I’d worry about anyone who’s willing (or worse eager) to risk his or her professional reputation. It would almost be a case for rejecting any affidavit signed by a “Paranormal Challenge Irregular.”

Well I doubt very much that the reason that a professional is specified is because they may be defensive about their reputation.

Randi and the JREF are hardly likely to compromise someone's professional career merely because they witnessed something that they could not explain. In what way would their reputation be damaged? Are you saying that after the affidavits are received and the applicant failes in the claim that JREF would publicise the name and address of the witnesses? I somehow doubt so.

As far as I can see, the reason for the "professional" requirement is to force applicants away from family, friends, and coterie and towards people who are, hopefully, more educated and reticent to jump on a woo-woo wagon.

Note, also, the list contains "doctors, nurses, therapists, researchers, psychologists" - just the sort of people in whose direction the JREF should be nudging the self-deluded. These are also people that the JREF can contact in order to ascertain the general demeanour and intelligence level of the applicant.

In any event, I happen to be suitably qualified.

 

[Rasmus]

I have a question for potential “Paranormal Challenge Irregulars” who support this idea. Do you have the professional qualifications that Kramer and the JREF are looking for in a person signing an affidavit?

Taht really depends on how they interpret the rules. I am still not sure what to think of this whole idea, but if a degree of an accredidited university isn't good enough I don't know what is.

If so, are you willing to risk that professional reputation by claiming to believe applicants have or can demonstrate seemingly paranormal abilities in public? (Possibly repeatedly for different applicants?)

I would not sign that I saw something "seemingly paranormal". I would sign that I saw something I cannot explain. I see a lot of things like that. Usually it's because I am not aware of the explanation. I have yet to see something I believe cannot be explained at all, however.

I would sign for pretty much everything I ever saw magicians like David Copperfield do. Do I think what they did was real? No. Do I think it's elaborate trickstery? Yes. Can I explain how they did it? No, usually not. And that is the important part.

The affidavit confirms that the applicant can do what he claims he can do; it does not confirm in any way that anything paranormal is going on.

I think part of the reason they specify “professionals” is they want people with some accountability at risk to vouch for the applicant. I’d worry about anyone who’s willing (or worse eager) to risk his or her professional reputation. It would almost be a case for rejecting any affidavit signed by a “Paranormal Challenge Irregular.”

What can I say? I dissagree.

I would be no more risking my professional reputatino than the JREF itself, regularily inviting peolpe around to demonstrate the silliest of things. That's what the challenge is about and it does not require a believ in the actual existance of the paranormal.

I see a lot of problems with giving too much organized support to applicants, but this is not one of them.

Rasmus.

 

[drkitten]

If they fail to understand - despite it being stated explicitly in agreement with them (and acknowledged by them with their signature) that nothing I do will further their claim beyond *possibly* helping them towards the affidavit goal, then they're hardly going to undertsand negotiating a real protocol.

Which is still not going to reduce Kramer's workload, which I believe you stated was part of the point.

You make things explicit. You write them down. You obtain their witnessed signature. You keep it. The affidavit that you sign - in the event that they display their claims working - includes a disclaimer with respect to your non-JREFness. This means that all bases are covered.

And how will this help when Kramer has to deal with the mess you've created for him?

If they use your affidavit, they also show JREF that they accept that you are not a JREF agent. I

No. If they use your affidavit, they also show JREF that they have signed a piece of paper stating that they accept that you are not a JREF agent.

This doesn't mean that they accept it, not by a long chalk.

If they attempt to use the previous test at stage, they are told "No. that test was performed by non-agents, and is irrelevant to JREF. Additionally, the application was incomplete at that stage and is finally complete as and of now (affidavits being received), and as per the rules, only now will JREF commence with preliminary testing".

.... and, receiving these notes, the applicants prompts scream, throw things, and generally make Kramer's life a misery because, although they signed the paperwork, they didn't accept it.

Finally, their only legal proof that they proved themselves in front of witnesses would be the affidavits - all of which absolve the JREF of any role.

.... when the case finally gets to a very expensive court of law.

I still fail to see how this can have any effect other than to make Kramer's job substantially more stressful.