Papal Infallibility

[Oxymoron]

How is it that millions of Catholics can believe in such a concept? Brainwashing? Fear? Religious conviction? The pope is just a man. That's it. Just a man. Any thoughts on this?

 

[dglas]

It is a dogma of absolutes and direct hotlines to gawd. How could they not? I think it's despair more than anything else. They've been taught to hate humanity and themselves (intrinsic evil) and need something to hang their hats on - even if they have to make it up.

Anyway, it's far from a given that all self-professed catholics believe in the infallibility of gawd's rottweiller. I, personally, think he's doing a wonderful job of making himself and his dogma look ridiculous.

 

[Freethinker]

Once you buy into the rest of the delusion, it's easy to carry it a little further by believing in the infallibility of a man. That's trivial when compared to the whole god/angels/heaven in the clouds fairy tale. People believe the Scientology crap; Sheeple will believe anything.

 

[KingMerv00]

Just to be clear, the Pope's infallibility only extends to specific types of declarations. Still silly though.

 

[Lothian]

I was thinking similar the other day.

Prior to becoming pope was he Infallible ?
At what state does he become infallible ?

What happens where Catholicism changes.. ahem.. position ?
For example recently it was announced that you can use a condom if you have HIV. How does infallibility affect previous declarations that they could never be used. Same with the old sun going round the earth thingy. Does the church admit that certain popes were wrong, or is it just further clarification as in the popes gown is still black it is just an extremely while shade of black?

 

[ceo_esq]

How is it that millions of Catholics can believe in such a concept? Brainwashing? Fear? Religious conviction? The pope is just a man. That's it. Just a man. Any thoughts on this?

Religious conviction is the answer, I think. If you believe in God, that God founded your religion and promised to protect it from falling into serious error about religious truths, then the often-misunderstood doctrine of infallibility makes sense. The pope is just a man, as you point out, so I suppose a Catholic would ask "Why would we expect a mere man and his fallible nature to be able to stand in the way of God's promise"? The infallibility would come directly from God, and only attach incidentally to the man.

 

[Darth Rotor]

Once you buy into the rest of the delusion, it's easy to carry it a little further by believing in the infallibility of a man. That's trivial when compared to the whole god/angels/heaven in the clouds fairy tale. People believe the Scientology crap; Sheeple will believe anything.

I suggest you research the explicit doctrinal definition of Papal Infallability before making a remark like that. It is clearly defined in Catholic Doctrine, and is indeed, as KingMerv points out, limited to matters of doctrine and canon. It does not extend, for example, to internal medicine.

It is a mistake is to misinterpret the two line title, or label, for the actual detail of that doctrinal tenet. ( I have my reservations on the Pope's status and expertise.)

DR

 

[Oxymoron]

Right. I have had so many conversations with Catholics in the past. One question they can not seem to answer is, What makes this man, the Pope, so much more special than you and I, that he is closer to god? Or is infallible. I usually end up doing this and a little of this . I just can't seem to get it.

And Lothian: exactly, when does this man become infallible? sheesh.

 

[Oxymoron]

http://www.catholic.com/library/Papal_Infallibility.asp

here's a link I've found relating to the definition, according to the Catholic Church.

edit: what I found interesting is a lot of Catholics I've spoken with have this "misunderstanding of impeccability and infallibility". I found this definition to be laced with ambiguity and backpeddling.

 

[Marquis de Carabas]

The Pope is seen as the head of God's Church, appointed by God (or at least tacitly approved). He is believed to be a mouthpiece for an infallible God. It is not that the man is always right, it is that the God will not allow falsehoods (on issues of doctrine, as noted above) to be spoken by his church's earthly head.

Belief in papal infallibility, given the premises of a Catholic faith, is just a logical conclusion. Believing the premises is, of course, another matter.

 

[wahrheit]

*snip* One question they can not seem to answer is, What makes this man, the Pope, so much more special than you and I, that he is closer to god?

Which is exactly one of the reasons why I turned atheist when I was a kid. The moment I realized this guy did not come down from the sky with a flash of lightning, landing on the throne in Vatican city, but was the mere result of his dad and mom having sexual intercourse - that moment I quit taking part in any religious stuff.

 

[bobcarp]

"A celibate clergy is an especially good idea, because it tends to suppress any hereditary propensity toward fanaticism." -Carl Sagan

 

[Oxymoron]

Which is exactly one of the reasons why I turned atheist when I was a kid. The moment I realized this guy did not come down from the sky with a flash of lightning, landing on the throne in Vatican city, but was the mere result of his dad and mom having sexual intercourse - that moment I quit taking part in any religious stuff.

wait, are you saying Mary wasn't a virgin?

I recently dated someone who actually had two, 3 foot statues of Jesus and Mary IN HIS HOUSE. You should have seen the color drain from his face when I told him I joined this site. (maybe that's why things didn't work out, LOL.)

 

[Tricky]

Infallible? You have got to be kidding. Those guys have screwed me around so many times I can't count them. Plus I keep getting annoying emails from them about my account. They've caused me to have to change my credit card number and miss e-bay auctions and...

What?

I thought you said PayPal infallibility.


Never mind.

 

[KingMerv00]

wait, are you saying Mary wasn't a virgin?

I recently dated someone who actually had two, 3 foot statues of Jesus and Mary IN HIS HOUSE. You should have seen the color drain from his face when I told him I joined this site. (maybe that's why things didn't work out, LOL.)

There is a 1 foot tall statute of Jesus's terrestrial father in my apartment. Not sure why. Not mine...don't think it is my roomate's. A grandparent may have snuck it under the radar.

I think I'll leave it there though. I sorta like the irony.

 

[Oxymoron]

Infallible? You have got to be kidding. Those guys have screwed me around so many times I can't count them. Plus I keep getting annoying emails from them about my account. They've caused me to have to change my credit card number and miss e-bay auctions and...

What?

I thought you said PayPal infallibility.


Never mind.

 

[jmercer]

Papal infallibility extends only to ex cathedra statements; and there have been a very limited number of those over the years. Supposedly, ex cathedra pronouncements aren't made by the Pope, but are direct statements by God though the Pope in the form of divine inspiration. (Yes, I suppose that makes the Pope a medium in those cases.)

Regarding how the Pope is chosen; presumably, God gets what He wants by causing the Cardinals to vote for the candidate of choice; it's interesting to note that several Popes have died immediately after donning the robes - when I pointed that out, the explanation I got was that when the wrong guy is chosen (free will), God takes him "home" to permit the "right guy" to ascend the throne.

Hey, don't shoot me - I'm only the messenger.

Love the avatar, Oxy - is that your real eye?

 

[Freethinker]

I suggest you research the explicit doctrinal definition of Papal Infallability before making a remark like that. It is clearly defined in Catholic Doctrine, and is indeed, as KingMerv points out, limited to matters of doctrine and canon. It does not extend, for example, to internal medicine.

It is a mistake is to misinterpret the two line title, or label, for the actual detail of that doctrinal tenet. ( I have my reservations on the Pope's status and expertise.)

DR

Regardless of any restrictive definition of his infallibility, belief in it is still delusional. My extended family (including inlaws etc.) includes 3 active priests, 2 retired nuns and an Archbishop. My family tree is filled with them on the side branches as far as it has been traced, so you may rest assured I'm aware of Catholic doctrine.

Whatever the pope speaks ex cathedra is the irrevocable doctrine of the church, inspired by god, and implemented by the holy spirit. Even if a future ex cathedra declaration contradicts it, it doesn't contradict it because they can't by definition.

 

[Darth Rotor]

Regardless of any restrictive definition of his infallibility, belief in it is still delusional. My extended family (including inlaws etc.) includes 3 active priests, 2 retired nuns and an Archbishop. My family tree is filled with them on the side branches as far as it has been traced, so you may rest assured I'm aware of Catholic doctrine.

Thanks for clearing that up, it was not self evident in your post.

DR

 

[Oxymoron]

Papal infallibility extends only to ex cathedra statements; and there have been a very limited number of those over the years. Supposedly, ex cathedra pronouncements aren't made by the Pope, but are direct statements by God though the Pope in the form of divine inspiration. (Yes, I suppose that makes the Pope a medium in those cases.)



Regarding how the Pope is chosen; presumably, God gets what He wants by causing the Cardinals to vote for the candidate of choice; it's interesting to note that several Popes have died immediately after donning the robes - when I pointed that out, the explanation I got was that when the wrong guy is chosen (free will), God takes him "home" to permit the "right guy" to ascend the throne.

Hey, don't shoot me - I'm only the messenger.

Love the avatar, Oxy - is that your real eye?

well, maybe it's my inner critical eye.