Pairing differences.

[Cleopatra]

Dragonrock's thread brought into the discussion an issue that I wish to discuss.
I do not wish to derail his thread so I am starting a new one.
In the other thread I claim that

Every time I say that it's better for atheists to marry atheists and people with religious beliefs to marry their similars I am not joking. Look what happens when you overlook such things.

and I received some strong responses.

I believe that each person has the right to have his own views and I know from personal experience that I could pair with anybody regardless his beliefs. I have slept with Arabs, with Catholics, with Communists, with Muslims and I never had any problem with that but I would never marry an Arab, a Muslim, a Catholic if I had decided to have children with him OR I would convert to Catholism or to Islam or I would sign a contract if the individual in question was an atheist and I will explain why I feel like that.

I have grown up in a mixed family. My parents are married for 36 years now and they still adore each other. To my eyes they are the perfect couple BUT they will never understand how difficult was for my sister and me to grow up in a mixed family. My dad is an atheist /baptised Orthodox Greek and my mom is a Jew.

We never passed normal holidays like other families did. Just because my dad is an atheist we never celebrated Christmas and just because my mom is a Jew we never celebrated one of the finest Greek Holidays; Easter. Of course we never celebrated any jewish holidays either and all these for what reason? Because my dad is an atheist married to a Jew.

Greece is a country where religion is not separated by the state. At school students pray each morning and twice a year they go to church. I never attended the morning prayer because my dad drove us at school just after the prayer was over and of course we didn't give a flying you know what about prayers but this made my sister and I look different.

I could go on and on like this. I could narrate you how my sister and I are perceived as Israelis in Greece and as Greeks in Israel. I have tones of annoying details that prove what sort of dead ends such differences create.

I won't take the responsibility to put my kids in the same position ever. Needless to say that I believe that living with an atheist is more difficult than living with a Muslim--for example. Atheists feel excluded from the society and I understand their anger and their frustration because they receive all sorts of attacks it just that I am not willing to pay for anybody's anger and please do not attempt to persuade me that it doesn't matter because it does matter.

Everyday life and relationships are tough. When things get rough people start hitting each other where they are vulnerable and beliefs and non-beliefs is the soft spot of everybody.

Also, there is something else. In the other thread Asthmatic Camel brought the best example that demonstrate what sort of problems such differences might create. He talked about getting married and burrying a child, we are talking about two major events in a human's life.

I wouldn't want even to think how would I feel if I was in his wife's shoes although I know very well what I would do.

Also, sorry for what I will say but I sympathize with Dragonrock's wife, I know why she started crying although she should have known better. It's silly to try to overlook beliefs when it comes to marriage.

So much of unnecessary pain and for what?This was my point.Sorry for the long post/rant.

 

[Zep]

No couple is a perfect match in all respects. Even the most "perfect" pairing has some mismatches in it. What is important is how important THEY think these differences are, and what, if anything, they are prepared to do to overcome them.

You hear fairly frequently of couples married for decades who suddenly part acrimoniously over something we might consider remarkably trivial. Issues like choices in wall-paint colours, or where they want to go on holidays next. Then there are other couples who you would think would never in a million years even make it to the altar, let alone stay married happily for decades. But these things, and stranger, do indeed happen.

My view is that it is the couple's ability to negotiate and compromise on issues they see as important. The close-knit couple probably separated because they couldn't bear NOT being similar on anything - conformity, not unity, was their goal. The mismatched couple made bigger adjustments because they valued their unity over individual comforts - conformity was not the main point.

It comes down to this: Some people think being different is bad and to be avoided. Other people think it is cool, interesting and challenging. Not everyone is the same - it would be a boring world if we were.

 

[evildave]

I'd say it's a function of how deeply one, the other or both hold their feelings, and how secure and emotionally mature they are about them.

If a couple can 'make it work' such that one or the other doesn't feel they're 'living a lie', then I see no reason why people with different outlooks can't get along splendidly.

I have a friend who's a heathen heretical atheist who's been married to a devout Catholic for years and years. He goes to church with her because he loves her. The irreverent jokes aren't allowed when she might be around. They have an arrangement. It works for them. You're only married 'till 'death do you part'.

As a guideline, people who 'love god/jesus/whoever' more than their families probably aren't going to be the best mates for anyone.

 

[MRC_Hans]

I understand your sentiments, Cleopatra (and I like your sig ), but it also depends on how dilligent people are in whatever they believe. For example, I'm an atheist, but we certainly have christmas, easter, etc. in my family. My grandchildren have all been babtized, and I have of course attended the ceremonies. I go to church weddings, too (when invited).

I have even lit the odd candle in a church from time to time, if I felt a reason for it. I don't think God is more or less present in a church that anywhere else, but a church seems the right place for some things.

Hans

 

[The GM]

People who want it to work will make it work. It's really no more difficult than that.

 

[Peskanov]

Reading yor post, I feel your main concern is children's social integration. While I completely understand your point, I find it kind of shocking, because I feel the problem is the contrary on Spain and other West-Europe countries.
An atheist child would have been a paria in my grandfathers era, but now is the reverse. I am seeing how religious childs feel totally alienated from their generation.
In Spain, only a few strong catholic institutions remain vital within the youth. Mainly CNC (camino neocatecumenal) and Opus Dei. The few religious youths I know pertain to these groups. My feel is that they are better integrated with their families, but alienated from their generation. Even more, I would say they are marginalized!
This happens usually in big cities (the situation is different in rural areas). There are whole provinces which retain a high degree of religiosity in Spain, but the general trend is decline of religion.

Now, the question is: When both partners are religious, is that better for the kids? My view about the evolution of religion in Europe, makes me think that the answer is "no", when talking about integration.

 

[Mercutio]

Wow...deep question...

I don't have an answer so much as I am just thinking as I type. I think it would depend tremendously on things that vary from individual to individual, such that a blanket statement might be uncalled for. For instance, there is a world of difference between your (Cleopatra's) faith, which has been examined, has been attacked here, is not held lightly, and is not held out of fear of the unknown. I tremendously admire and have deep respect for your faith. Others here (no names, but I think some are obvious) search desperately for evidence in the physical world that their spiritual beliefs are right, not having the faith that can stand without evidence, and not having the courage of their convictions. That person could not live with an atheist. And of course, it depends on the atheist. Myself, most of my moral views I can trace back to my religious upbringing. I can understand and appreciate some spiritual or religious views (and I honestly think, based on your writing here, that the vast majority of the ones I cannot understand, neither can you--there is, it seems, more variability within the religious and atheist worlds than between them...with, of course, one major exception (generally).

It seems that many of the choices your parents made (about holidays, for instance) are not the necessary consequence of their belief systems, but only one possible way to manage them. In "mixed" families here (I can only speak for some of the families of my kids' friends) they celebrate both sets of holidays, and sometimes even more, as they include recognition of faiths that they themselves do not hold. Of course, that is simply one other way to manage the difference. I doubt there is "a" right way, but simply different ways.

I don't know...it seems to me that there is so much variety within both religion and atheism...I have had deeply religious students who have never had a thought of their own, merely parroting what pastor or priest has told them. I have other deeply religious students and friends who have thought and felt deeply about the issue, have examined their beliefs and come out strong, thoughtful, spiritual people. I have had atheist students who have not convinced me that their brains are hooked up at all; their atheism is not thought out, and as such I would pity them at the hands of a smart believer. I also have friends whose atheism is deeply examined and thoughtfully held. I think that the latter type of both religious person and atheist would get along much better than either would get along with one of the former types (if you can parse that sentence).

I get from your OP (perhaps I read into it) that your concerns are mostly social, not intrapersonal; that is, you are not opposed to such unions because of self-doubt or defensiveness, nor hostility toward the atheist view, but rather because of the (I try to avoid this word, sorry) behavioral things--the ceremonies, the rituals (both formal and informal), the social aspects of belief and non-belief. You may know better about this than I, but I think that these are more a matter of indvidual decisions than of the intrinsic differences in worldview. Your parents made different decisions than, say, we would (if religious you and atheist I decided to raise Tricky as our own).

I do think your point is more important than the initial knee-jerk reaction to it would indicate (on the other thread, some dismissed it quickly. I think it deserves much deeper consideration than that.). As I said, these are thoughts composed at the keyboard, on a subject that deserves more than that level of thought. I may return and post more...*grin*...I may even change my mind and retract all I have said here...

 

[roger]

You can't extrapolate all of human existence based on the behavior of your parents.

My last girlfriend was Jewish. I was Catholic as a kid, and am now atheist. Our religious beliefs, or lack thereof, had zero impact on the relationship. On Jewish holidays I went with her to her brother's house to celebrate Yom Kippur, Passover, etc. On Christmas she came to my house, where we had a tree set up (at her insistance, not mine). Heck, I even went to synagogue with her once and sang in Hebrew and danced. None of that was expected, we did it because we didn't mind. She's somewhat uncomfortable with some aspects with Christianity, so when she was around I didn't listen to the liturgical music I love (for musical, rather than religious reasons). No big deal. And I know plenty of couples in similar mixed relationships. It's no problem unless one or both are adamant about both people sharing a particular belief or behavior.

Making a rule before hand is rather inflexible, and prejudiced. Deciding, based on existing friction, that a relationship is not viable is reasonable and mature. IMO.

Actually, it's not IMO. Your argument has been empirically refuted.

 

[asthmatic camel]

Cleo,

Also, there is something else. In the other thread Asthmatic Camel brought the best example that demonstrate what sort of problems such differences might create. He talked about getting married and burrying a child, we are talking about two major events in a human's life.

I wouldn't want even to think how would I feel if I was in his wife's shoes although I know very well what I would do.

To be fair, I was attempting to point out that mixed marriages of all sorts can work; mine is both inter-racial and and involves two people with diametrically opposed views on religion.

The only two times I can recall either case being an issue were those that I stated in the other thread; my refusal to get married in church and my annoyance at her religious friends' impromptu prayer service following our child's death.

Over the wedding, we compromised. We were married at a registry office and then had a reception where speeches were welcomed by the religious and non-religious alike. It was a wonderful day and I'm not aware that anyone was unduly upset that there wasn't a church ceremony.

The second incident tried my patience to the limit but, I was well aware that the people involved were doing what they could to bring us both comfort in the manner that seemed best to them. I certainly didn't turf them out of the house or have a blazing row with my wife over it; I merely felt very uncomfortable about what went on at a time when, really, I just wanted to be left alone. I dropped my atheist principles when it came to the funeral and freely agreed to a full Christian service; it meant a lot to my wife and couldn't really do any harm, could it?

I do understand that I'm fortunate to live in a country which is, for the main part, extremely tolerant, and that this isn't the case elsewhere. I also understand what you say about not being "normal". Unfortunately, "normal" usually means people who swallow the dogma and are unable to think past it. Even more unfortunate is that those who can are forced to play to the crowd if they wish to make any impact.

Rant over,

AC

 

[Piscivore]

The only two times I can recall either case being an issue were those that I stated in the other thread; my refusal to get married in church and my annoyance at her religious friends' impromptu prayer service following our child's death.

My wife is also religious. Sort-of. She was raised Catholic, lapsed from that, and is re-discovering her faith in the Methodist church I grew up in. She hardly ever goes, but is unwilling to commit to even agnosticism as yet. We talk about issues of this sort on occasion; we spoke about early homonids last week.

That said, I had no problems getting married in a church. As a lapsed Catholic, my wife's old church wouldn't allow it, so we got married in my family's. It was a quiet, dignified ceremony, and the heat due to a broken A/C and it being August were more on my mind than the religious content of the programming. It made my wife happy, our respective families happy, and it was hardly a bother to me. Of course, the fact that Methodists are rarely bible-thumpers was a big plus.

We've not had a funeral for my daughter, by mutual consent. My wife wanted to scatter her ashes at the Chapel of the Holy Cross in Sedona; we had gone there on our honeymoon and the site is lovely. When we went up to to light a candle and scatter her ashes, the tourista visiting were so unimaginably crass and ill-mannered we couldn't even consider doing so- I'm atheist, and I was offended by the disrespect displayed to a church.

Her remains right now rest in a box in our bedroom. We occasionally bring up the question, but we haven't thought of anything we'd be happy with.

ETA: I forgot to mention how much effort it took to not kick the teeth in of the three people who told me her death was part of "God's plan". Or the "grief counsellor" who made my wife angry by offering similar vapid platitudes.

 

[RebeccaBradley]

Needless to say that I believe that living with an atheist is more difficult than living with a Muslim--for example. Atheists feel excluded from the society and I understand their anger and their frustration because they receive all sorts of attacks it just that I am not willing to pay for anybody's anger and please do not attempt to persuade me that it doesn't matter because it does matter.

Sorry to say, Cleo, I think that's a skewed view of atheists. Most of those I know (including myself) are happy, well-adjusted socially, and not particularly angry or frustrated. Speaking for myself, I love Christmas, cheerfully observe other religious holidays (by sleeping in, usually ), and maintain close ties with my Baptist Fundamentalist extended family, including going to family weddings and funerals. To give them due credit, they love and tolerate me as well. And I think my experience of life as an atheist is not an uncommon one, at least in North America and Western Europe.

Stepping sideways: during our sojourns in Sudan and Kuwait, we saw a fair number of marriages between Muslim men and Christian women; many of the latter had converted to Islam, but not all. Some of these were disastrous marriages, some were hugely successful. The difference seemed to relate to how adaptable the wife was to the different cultural expectations in a Muslim society. That is, those who expected to have a Western-style nuclear-family marriage were in trouble; those who recognized they needed to find a place in the female hierarchy of the extended family did very well, whether they converted or not. This (admittedly anecdotal) evidence suggests that social adaptability is at least as important as religious congruence.

 

[uruk]

Cleo, I can understand your concern. I am a product of interracial and religeous mixing. My fiance is also of mixed race. We both had very diffrent experiances growing up. We grew up in a predominatly hispanic area, My appearance is essentialy hispanic so I experianced a little predjudice from my peers. My fiance appears caucasion and experianced much more predjudice than I did ( she had to physicaly defend herself on more than one occasion. But childhood fights are not that uncommon). Childhood was a bit rocky, but our parents raised us the notion that problem was not with us but with others. There is bit of alienation that takes place, but we found our niche and our own group of friends. Just like any other child would. The problems that we ran into were mainly due to the ignorance of others. Once they made the effort or were forced into interaction with us they soon accepted the differences.
Now I do experiance a subtle prejudice that still exists. When I do business at work over the phone I find that I am more willingly accepted and service is more attentive when my last name is mentioned (a name that goes back to my British ancestors on my father's side) When I do business in person, the whole nature of interaction changes. And I am certain that it is due to my physical appearance (which goes back to my indian ancestors in Mexico on my mother's side). My fiance does not have this problem because bother her last name and apperance goes back to her Irish ancestry on her father's side.

As far as religion, My father (who's southern baptist) chose to let my mother (who's roman catholic) decide the religion I was raised under. It was a choice they agreed on befoe I was born. (roman catholic by the way) When I became an adult the choice was mine. (agnostic) I know the difference is miniscule between a Baptist and catholic. Sprinklers or dunkers. But the point I'm making is that interacial/inter-religious relationships can work out if both person's involved choose to make it work out. As far as The children are concerend. Celebrate all the holidays and give them a little extra guidance when it comes to social interactions. Help them to prepare for deal with predjudice and ignorance. Other than that, they will make thier own way. The same way we all do.

 

[DanishDynamite]

There's little I can add to what others have said. (Not that this will keep me from posting anyway )

Looking at what you wrote it seems to me that your negative view on mixed-faith marriages stems mainly from your experiences as a child. I can understand that you wouldn't want your children to experience something similar, but then I have to say that the arrangement your parents made, i.e. not to celebrate any holidays, is fairly extreme and is surely unusual. Heck, I'm an atheist and I celebrate Christmas and can even be enduced to attend church on Christmas eve. I can even get misty eyed when I hear Mahalia Jackson sing "Silent night" (although this usually only happens after a certain amount of schnaps and beer has been consumed).

Even the Japanese, who have very few Christians, celebrate Christmas big time.

To sum up, your personal experience is not so much the result of your parents having different religious views, but rather the unusual way they solved this.

I'd just like to comment this part of your post as well:

Atheists feel excluded from the society and I understand their anger and their frustration because they receive all sorts of attacks it just that I am not willing to pay for anybody's anger and please do not attempt to persuade me that it doesn't matter because it does matter.

This is a completely wrong view of atheists, at least in this country and I dare say in most of Europe. Atheists (declared or functional) are in the majority here. I have never felt excluded from society, even when I was living in the very Catholic country of the Philippines.

 

[LuxFerum]

...and all these for what reason? Because my dad is an atheist married to a Jew.

Not really. I think you put too much weight in this part of the problem, it might be even a big part of the problem, but is not all of it.

Greece is a country where religion is not separated by the state. At school students pray each morning and twice a year they go to church. I never attended the morning prayer because my dad drove us at school just after the prayer was over and of course we didn't give a flying you know what about prayers but this made my sister and I look different.

What if both of your parents were atheists? That wouldn't solve your problem, you would still look different.

I won't take the responsibility to put my kids in the same position ever.

You are right in doing this, and in making sure that your spouse will comply with this, I don't know why he must have the same religion as you for this to work.

So much of unnecessary pain and for what?This was my point.

Some pain can be avoided, as with any other potencial problem detected. Some people might not be flexible enough to solve them, but some are.

 

[Cleopatra]

I have discussed this subject with my dad many times and I was wondering lately if he reads anything else apart from the Science Forum. I think that I got my answer...

My dad's opinion is that as a free person he had every right to upbring his kids the way he though the best as long as he was respecting their character and their will and he insists that he'd do the same if he had the opportunity to raise kids again.

Mercutio made a very interesting point here:

I get from your OP (perhaps I read into it) that your concerns are mostly social, not intrapersonal; that is, you are not opposed to such unions because of self-doubt or defensiveness, nor hostility toward the atheist view, but rather because of the (I try to avoid this word, sorry) behavioral things--the ceremonies, the rituals (both formal and informal), the social aspects of belief and non-belief.

Yes indeed. Having experienced the multi-national and multi-religional I think that homogenous families tend to be calmer and they raise more balanced children. The more I grow up the less I tend to overlook some aspects in life like social norms, I take into consideration of what society thinks more than I used to and I tend to believe that some sterotypes have a point.

There is another thing that I haven't cover. One of the commonest questions the kids pose is about the existence and the non-existence of God. When _I_ posed this question my parents replied that some people believe in the existence of God but others like them do not. I happen to believe --even in the way I believe that is far from the extremes and I would like that my kids are raised in a certain way. On the other hand I totally understand people who don't wish their kids to be raised in beliefs. I do not see how could I ever raise kids with such people.

Every day life is a really taugh project that each one of us must undertake. When things get tough each one of us returns to his beliefs and to his non-beliefs( sorry but all the atheists I know might not believe in God but they believe in something passionately ) so, every day life doesn't leave us much room for the luxury of having controversial opinions within a family.

Uruk when I fist visited New York City I couldn't be taken seriously with my Greek name. Every problem I had though was solved just by demonstrating my Israeli passport. It was amazing how the same thing can be a problem in one country and a deus ex machina in another country.

Also, I do not think that atheists are angry people, haunted by a complex of procecution, sorry for making it seem that way this is not what I meant. What I mean is that I understand that in some countries and especially in the States being an atheist might be a problem and people are fed up with that attitude and when it comes to their family they decide to bring their kids they way they think and they seem sort of strict and determined about that.

 

[Correa Neto]

Well, not so different from what other people told, but here goes my experience.

My mother is catholic. However, she (very wisely) decided to raise me apart from religion. I was baptized, but I have not received the first communion (sp?), what would supposedly turn me into a "true catholict" according to the rites. She thought that I should be free to choose my religion -if any- when I could propperly understand what its really about.

Our family celebrated christmas, easter, etc. She always explained me what the celebrations were about, and let me free to decide if I wanted to attend to church (what I usually never did, since I found -and still find- churches depressing). There was a bit of attrition with my grandmother regarding the issue, but it was nothing that really created any problems. Neither I had problems with the other children regarding this issue.

Now, Brazil is a multicultural and multireligious country. At my school, there were children from Catholic, Protestant, Jewish (non-orthodox), Kardecist and atheistic families. There is some separation betwen state and the church (despite recent alarming growth of evangelic sects that try to change this). So, attending or not to one celebration is not really a big issue (unless you live in some small backward town).

Atheistic families I know tend to celebrate Christmas (and similar dates, pessach, for example), but as a tradition rather than a religious celebration. I know families if Jewish origin who celebrated Jewish religious dates and cerimonies on a similar way, to keep tradition and culture, a reminder of their ethnical background. Again, no major issued regarding their children. There was really no major integration problem.

My wife (sorry to break your heart girls, I´m married) is catholic. I am agnostic (I tend to become a hard-line atheist when pressed). We married 10 yers ago. We had very few discussions regarding my constant refusal to attend to church. She decided not to press on the issue, respecting my individuality, and I decide to respect hers. Actually nowdays she almost never goes to the church, but she still considers herself catholic. The only current major drawback on this situation is that I can not have discussions with her regarding such interesting topics as religion, that I truly enjoy...

We still have no children, but we already decide how to educate them, if we ever decide to have one (or more). We´ll give them no formal religious education. We´ll explain them what the religions are about, and the concepts of god, using hers and mine point of view. And we´ll let them have the choice.

The bottomline is that, in my personal experience, as long as there is tolerance and education, the problems are minimal. Again, from my personal experience (and also from my wife´s experience, she´s a teatcher), children raised by families who follow too closely the rules of the religion (regardless of wich one it is) are the ones who experience more integration problems, unless they are created in an environment where most of the people they interact are from their own religion. And this has the potential to make things worst, later in their lives, in high school, university or during their professional lives.

I hope this can be of some help.

PS-

Complaining about your name in USA? At least you´ve got an israeli passport. Try being a product of the following mix-> calabrian+portuguese+french+african+native brazilian = me, that created something quite like a standard southern mediterranean type, usually mistaken as an arab, with a brazillian passport and an uncommon name (courtesy of my grand-grandfather´s love of greek mithology)... Quite rigorous inspection is to be expected.

 

[Jellby]

When I was a child I was the only child in my class (and, i believe, in the whole school) that didn't attend to religion classes in the school: when the rest of the children had religion, I just went home, and I was very happy about it. I never had social problems with that*, some of my friends even thought I was very lucky The source of most of my problems were probably my good grades

* Well, once (I was, say, 7-8) I heard another child tell his mother: "Look, mom, that child there believes in the Sun". I thought "yeah, I believe in the Sun, I see it everyday" Some years afterwards that child remembered that as a childish episode.
... or maybe this is all false memories, after all.

 

[DanishDynamite]

I have discussed this subject with my dad many times and I was wondering lately if he reads anything else apart from the Science Forum. I think that I got my answer...

Your dad reads this forum?! Cool.

My dad's opinion is that as a free person he had every right to upbring his kids the way he though the best as long as he was respecting their character and their will and he insists that he'd do the same if he had the opportunity to raise kids again.

Of course your dad has this right. Given how unusual his choice was and how his choice has affected you, I disagree with his choice.

Mercutio made a very interesting point here:

Yes indeed. Having experienced the multi-national and multi-religional I think that homogenous families tend to be calmer and they raise more balanced children. The more I grow up the less I tend to overlook some aspects in life like social norms, I take into consideration of what society thinks more than I used to and I tend to believe that some sterotypes have a point.

There are many testimonies on this thread which say otherwise. My sister is married to a Muslim and their child is about the most balanced I know.

There is another thing that I haven't cover. One of the commonest questions the kids pose is about the existence and the non-existence of God. When _I_ posed this question my parents replied that some people believe in the existence of God but others like them do not. I happen to believe --even in the way I believe that is far from the extremes and I would like that my kids are raised in a certain way. On the other hand I totally understand people who don't wish their kids to be raised in beliefs. I do not see how could I ever raise kids with such people.

That is of course your choice. If you feel that your kids must be indoctrinated to believe as you do, that they shouldn't have a chance to make up their own mind, then it is obvious that you must marry someone with similar views.

Every day life is a really taugh project that each one of us must undertake. When things get tough each one of us returns to his beliefs and to his non-beliefs( sorry but all the atheists I know might not believe in God but they believe in something passionately ) so, every day life doesn't leave us much room for the luxury of having controversial opinions within a family.

Get real. No family exists which doesn't have strife and great strife at that. And the "luxury" of controversial opinions is not a luxury but a requirement for any sane family.

Also, I do not think that atheists are angry people, haunted by a complex of procecution, sorry for making it seem that way this is not what I meant. What I mean is that I understand that in some countries and especially in the States being an atheist might be a problem and people are fed up with that attitude and when it comes to their family they decide to bring their kids they way they think and they seem sort of strict and determined about that.

I doubt this is the case, even in the US. Personally, I would never try to force my child to be atheist. I would explain my view and let him/her decide when the time comes.

 

[elliotfc]

I'm sypathetic to your view Cleopatra, but...

My parents share the same religion...and that's basically it. Growing up in a racially mixed household is, dare I say, just as difficult as growing up in a religiously mixed household. I dunno. I think it an excellent way of teaching your children that two *different* people can love each other and create children together.

Regarding two different religious traditions, many kids celebrate both traditions. Are there hang-ups involved? Sure. Hell, people have extreme religious issues when both parents have the same religion.

You do make an excellent point when you say that it is a serious issue, and that both prospective spouses really need to get their heads around it before getting their blood tests.

Regarding unnecessary pain...it is only unnecessary if it leads nowhere, or to some horrible place. If two people can't get over their differences, yes, the pain can seem unnecessary. But if it is a symptom on the way to understanding, the pain is absolutely necessary.

Pain avoidance within marriage is bad. And I'm going to have to qualify that statement with the types on this board...no, I'm not talking about spouse beating or that kind of pain. What I'm saying is, if, when picking a spouse, you try to find the person who will result in the least painful marriage, that's missing the point. You marry with the knowledge that pain is inevitable, and that you'll stick it out and be the better for it.

Back to the mixed religions...there is such a wide variety of ways in which parents deal with the situation that I suspect it isn't as big a deal as you suggest Cleopatra, but of course anecdotal evidence can be used to make it into a horror show.

Having said that...I'd recommend/demand that my (theoretical) kids marry a Catholic!

-Elliot