OUCH!

[Mephisto]

I'm watching George Galloway's damning testimony regarding the Bush administration's handling of the Iraq war and his country's blind compliance to Bush policy. Too bad American Democrats would never have the "cojones" to speak as directly as did Galloway.

He also referenced this, indirectly:

US 'Backed Illegal Iraqi Oil Deals'
By Julian Borger and Jamie Wilson
The Guardian UK

Tuesday 17 May 2005
Report claims blind eye was turned to sanctions busting by American firms.

The United States administration turned a blind eye to extensive sanctions-busting in the prewar sale of Iraqi oil, according to a new Senate investigation.

A report released last night by Democratic staff on a Senate investigations committee presents documentary evidence that the Bush administration was made aware of illegal oil sales and kickbacks paid to the Saddam Hussein regime but did nothing to stop them.

http://www.truthout.org/docs_2005/051705Z.shtml
-------

I'm very interested to see what sort of damage control this will spark.

Mephisto

P.S. Sorry, this should be in the Politics forum. That's what I get for watching two screens at once.

 

[Mephisto]

I thought I would revive this string . . .

primarily because I posted it as I was watching Galloway's testimony and some people may not have known what I was referring to.

Here is an excerpt from the transcripts along with a link.

"I told the world that Iraq, contrary to your claims did not have weapons of mass destruction. I told the world, contrary to your claims, that Iraq had no connection to al-Qaeda. I told the world, contrary to your claims, that Iraq had no connection to the atrocity on 9/11 2001. I told the world, contrary to your claims, that the Iraqi people would resist a British and American invasion of their country and that the fall of Baghdad would not be the beginning of the end, but merely the end of the beginning.

"Senator, in everything I said about Iraq, I turned out to be right and you turned out to be wrong and 100,000 people paid with their lives; 1600 of them American soldiers sent to their deaths on a pack of lies; 15,000 of them wounded, many of them disabled forever on a pack of lies. "

http://www.truthout.org/docs_2005/051805Z.shtml

_________

As I said before, too bad politicians opposing Bush in the U.S. don't have the guts to say what Galloway did. Apparently the Bush administration feels that it has the right to somehow discredit a member of British Parliment. I'm still wondering what form of crisis management this will spark from the Dubya camp.

Mephisto

 

[Ziggurat]

Yeah, it really takes guts to be a completely unhinged nutjob. Here's another interesting quote from Galloway, where he plays the religious firebrand:

"The people who invaded and destroyed Iraq and have murdered more than a million Iraqi people by sanctions and war will burn in Hell in the hell-fires, and their name in history will be branded as killers and war criminals for all time. Fallujah is a Guernica, Falluaja is a Stalingrad, and Iraq is in flames as a result of the actions of these criminals. Not the resistance, not anybody else but these criminals who invaded and fell like wolves upon the people of Iraq. And by the way, those Arab regimes which helped them to do it will burn in the same hell-fires."

Of course, it's not quite as "brave" a rant as it looks: it was delivered for an arab audience on Abu-Dhabi TV, I don't think he expects anyone in England to watch it. But you can, right here:
http://www.memritv.org/Search.asp?ACT=S9&P1=372

Galloway isn't showing courage, he's pandering to his supporters. And to paraphrase SNL's Kerry, we deserve politicians who know the difference.

 

[Mephisto]

Yet you support this man . . .

I trust God speaks through me. Without that, I couldn't do my job.
-- Dubya: Mouthpiece of God. Statement made during campaign visit to Amish community, Lancaster County, Pennsylvania, Jul. 9, 2004

Faith-based is an important part of my life, individually, but I don't -- I don't ascribe a person's opposing my nominations to an issue of faith.
-- In case you're wondering, the context of this quote provided no explanation for using the word "Faith-based" as a noun, and he wasn't discussing faith-based initiatives, either. Prime time press conference, White House, Apr. 28, 2005

We have a calling from beyond the stars to stand for freedom, and America will always be faithful to that cause.
-- Vaguely religious in a way he shouldn't be, and vaguely sci-fi, all at the same time. Washington, D.C., Jan. 19, 2005

God loves you, and I love you. And you can count on both of us as a powerful message that people who wonder about their future can hear.
-- Reverend Dubya is confusing and spooky all at the same time, Los Angeles, California, Mar. 3, 2004

 

[Tony]

Re: Yet you support this man . . .

I trust God speaks through me. Without that, I couldn't do my job.
-- Dubya: Mouthpiece of God. Statement made during campaign visit to Amish community, Lancaster County, Pennsylvania, Jul. 9, 2004

Faith-based is an important part of my life, individually, but I don't -- I don't ascribe a person's opposing my nominations to an issue of faith.
-- In case you're wondering, the context of this quote provided no explanation for using the word "Faith-based" as a noun, and he wasn't discussing faith-based initiatives, either. Prime time press conference, White House, Apr. 28, 2005

We have a calling from beyond the stars to stand for freedom, and America will always be faithful to that cause.
-- Vaguely religious in a way he shouldn't be, and vaguely sci-fi, all at the same time. Washington, D.C., Jan. 19, 2005

God loves you, and I love you. And you can count on both of us as a powerful message that people who wonder about their future can hear.
-- Reverend Dubya is confusing and spooky all at the same time, Los Angeles, California, Mar. 3, 2004

Bush isn't showing faith, he's pandering to his supporters. And to paraphrase SNL's Kerry, we deserve politicians who know the difference.

 

[President Bush]

Yeah, it really takes guts to be a completely unhinged nutjob.

We are ready for any unforseen event which may or may not happen.

 

[DavidJames]

Re: Re: Yet you support this man . . .

Bush isn't showing faith, he's pandering to his supporters. And to paraphrase SNL's Kerry, we deserve politicians who know the difference.

But Tony, you don't understand, that's different

 

[Darat]

Re: I thought I would revive this string . . .

primarily because I posted it as I was watching Galloway's testimony and some people may not have known what I was referring to.

Here is an excerpt from the transcripts along with a link.

"I told the world that Iraq, contrary to your claims did not have weapons of mass destruction. I told the world, contrary to your claims, that Iraq had no connection to al-Qaeda. I told the world, contrary to your claims, that Iraq had no connection to the atrocity on 9/11 2001. I told the world, contrary to your claims, that the Iraqi people would resist a British and American invasion of their country and that the fall of Baghdad would not be the beginning of the end, but merely the end of the beginning.

"Senator, in everything I said about Iraq, I turned out to be right and you turned out to be wrong and 100,000 people paid with their lives; 1600 of them American soldiers sent to their deaths on a pack of lies; 15,000 of them wounded, many of them disabled forever on a pack of lies. "

http://www.truthout.org/docs_2005/051805Z.shtml

_________

As I said before, too bad politicians opposing Bush in the U.S. don't have the guts to say what Galloway did. Apparently the Bush administration feels that it has the right to somehow discredit a member of British Parliment. I'm still wondering what form of crisis management this will spark from the Dubya camp.

Mephisto

When the second Senator was questioning he reminded Galloway that he (the Senator) had not supported the war, Galloway then agreed he meant his "you" in general terms. At which point I would have liked the Senator to have said to Galloway, "Well then we should like to note that you also supported the invasion...".

 

[Ziggurat]

Re: Yet you support this man . . .

God loves you, and I love you. And you can count on both of us as a powerful message that people who wonder about their future can hear.
-- Reverend Dubya is confusing and spooky all at the same time, Los Angeles, California, Mar. 3, 2004

I'm not big on Bush's religion. But I'm not so blinded that I can't tell the difference between "God loves you" and "you will burn in hell". Tony may be right, Bush may be pandering every bit as much as Galloway. But I still much prefer Bush's pandering to Galloway's. Of course, I'd also feel better hanging out in a Baptist church than a Wahabi mosque. But maybe that's just me, maybe it's all the same to you.

 

[DavidJames]

Re: Re: Yet you support this man . . .

But Tony, you don't understand, that's different

I'm not big on Bush's religion. But I'm not so blinded that I can't tell the difference between "God loves you" and "you will burn in hell". Tony may be right, Bush may be pandering every bit as much as Galloway. But I still much prefer Bush's pandering to Galloway's. Of course, I'd also feel better hanging out in a Baptist church than a Wahabi mosque. But maybe that's just me, maybe it's all the same to you.

See, I told you

 

[Mephisto]

Re: Re: Yet you support this man . . .

I'm not big on Bush's religion. But I'm not so blinded that I can't tell the difference between "God loves you" and "you will burn in hell". Tony may be right, Bush may be pandering every bit as much as Galloway. But I still much prefer Bush's pandering to Galloway's. Of course, I'd also feel better hanging out in a Baptist church than a Wahabi mosque. But maybe that's just me, maybe it's all the same to you.

We each have our own preferences. I feel that Bush's pandering hurts Americans (and Iraqis), but Galloway's pandering affects me about as much as Democrats affected the past two presidential elections.

No one can hold it against you for choosing your own poison, but being skeptical about some things while making allowances for similar things you favor is like being "kind of" pregnant. It just doesn't work.

Still, I would question anyone with this type of rhetoric, especially in light of events during his administration.

___________

It's also important for people to know we never seek to impose our culture or our form of government. We just want to live under those universal values, God-given values.
-- Great, that's not an imposition at all, Reverend Dubya! Washington, D.C., Oct. 11, 2002

We know that dictators are quick to choose aggression, while free nations strive to resolve differences in peace.
-- Dubya seems not to mind inviting the comparison, address to U.N. General Assembly, Sep. 21, 2004

A country which has been under attack can respond by loving your neighbor like you'd like to be loved yourself.
-- Atlanta, Georgia, Jun. 17, 2002

Our nation must come together to unite.
-- Tampa, Florida, Jun. 4, 2001


I guess you can't argue with logic like that, even on a has-been late night comedy show.

Mephisto

 

[President Bush]

Re: Re: Re: Yet you support this man . . .

Still, I would question anyone with this type of rhetoric, especially in light of events during his administration.

You ****ing son of a bitch. I saw what you wrote. We're not going to forget this.

 

[Mycroft]

Re: Re: Re: Yet you support this man . . .

Still, I would question anyone with this type of rhetoric, especially in light of events during his administration.

Does that mean you question Galloway?

 

[Mephisto]

Sure, I'd question anyone . . .

Does that mean you question Galloway?

. . . with this type of logic, but can you list as many contrary quotes by Galloway as I have by Bush?

It would be a moot point anyway, because as I said previously, Galloway's assertions don't hurt me at all, whereas Bush's faulty rhetoric has hurt America's reputation in the world, has killed American soldiers needlessly, has killed a whole lot (since you once objected to me using countless) of Iraqis, and has united the Muslim world of fanatics against us.

Can you compare whatever ills you perceive Galloway has committed to those?

 

[Mephisto]

 

[Ziggurat]

Re: Sure, I'd question anyone . . .

It would be a moot point anyway, because as I said previously, Galloway's assertions don't hurt me at all, whereas Bush's faulty rhetoric has hurt America's reputation in the world, has killed American soldiers needlessly, has killed a whole lot (since you once objected to me using countless) of Iraqis, and has united the Muslim world of fanatics against us.

Can you compare whatever ills you perceive Galloway has committed to those?

No, I can't, because I can't agree with your assesment of Bush's actions in the first place. We do not have common ground on that issue. And I'm really sorry, but I'm still having a hard time equating "God loves you" and "you will burn in hell" - can you recognize nothing beyond that both statements are religious? The fact that Galloway is a mostly irrelevant twit doesn't change the fact that he's essentially allying himself with our enemies, with the people who want to kill both you and me and every other kufir.

 

[Mycroft]

Re: Sure, I'd question anyone . . .

Originally posted by Mephisto
. . . with this type of logic, but can you list as many contrary quotes by Galloway as I have by Bush?

I can't imagine why I'd want to.

Originally posted by Mephisto
It would be a moot point anyway, because as I said previously, Galloway's assertions don't hurt me at all, whereas Bush's faulty rhetoric has hurt America's reputation in the world, has killed American soldiers needlessly, has killed a whole lot (since you once objected to me using countless) of Iraqis, and has united the Muslim world of fanatics against us.

I could disagree with a lot there, but I think I’ll just pick....1) You have me confused with someone else who complained about your usage of "countless" and Muslim fanatics were united against us long before Bush.

Originally posted by Mephisto
Can you compare whatever ills you perceive Galloway has committed to those?

I don’t feel the need to compare Galloway to Bush. I didn’t vote for Bush and am not part of Galloway’s constituency.

 

[Mephisto]

Hellfire & Brimstone

And I'm really sorry, but I'm still having a hard time equating "God loves you" and "you will burn in hell" - can you recognize nothing beyond that both statements are religious? The fact that Galloway is a mostly irrelevant twit doesn't change the fact that he's essentially allying himself with our enemies, with the people who want to kill both you and me and every other kufir.

The fact that both statements ARE religious and from the same religious base (Christianity) should make it very easy to equate the two. One is concentrating on the positive aspect of a mythological being, the other is concentrating on the negative aspects of angering that mythological being.

The statements were made by two different men to different audiences under different contexts. "God loves you," was made by a politician pandering for votes by connecting with the blindly faithful in his country, "you will burn in hell," was made by a politician as an apology to a people mired in destruction and violence spurred onward by the invasion of their country.

Having empathy for people suffering because of our actions isn't necessarily aligning yourself with our enemies, and those people who want to kill you and I did NOT exist in Iraq as a viable threat UNTIL we invaded.

Mephisto

 

[DavidJames]

Re: Re: Sure, I'd question anyone . . .

And I'm really sorry, but I'm still having a hard time equating "God loves you" and "you will burn in hell" - can you recognize nothing beyond that both statements are religious?

You are ignoring the more important quote from Bush.

"I trust God speaks through me. Without that, I couldn't do my job."

This is very clear. When George speaks, we are hearing God's words. This, to Christians, provides George Carte Blanche to do whatever he want's because it's coming from God.

 

[Ziggurat]

Re: Re: Re: Sure, I'd question anyone . . .

You are ignoring the more important quote from Bush.

"I trust God speaks through me. Without that, I couldn't do my job."

This is very clear. When George speaks, we are hearing God's words. This, to Christians, provides George Carte Blanche to do whatever he want's because it's coming from God.

Ummm... no. Evidently you have little understanding of conservative Christianity. It's possible to read Bush's statement as him WANTING that, but it sure as hell isn't what he gets from the Christian right. They jump all over him whenever they think he isn't promoting their values sufficiently.

But even from the perspective of Bush himself, I think you're out of touch with that part of christianity. That concept, that god can act through you to do good in the world, isn't nearly the "get out of jail free" card you seem to think it is. It's not about being able to do whatever you want because it's coming from God, it's about a decision to try to do what god wants and having faith that if you do that, god will help make things work out. This kind of religiousity may make you uncomfortable (at I'm not really at home with it either), but evidently you can't distinguish between expressions of religious faith and expressions of hatred.