Orbs #2 in the commentary

[jj]

Looks like some massive lens flare. Was there a flash reflection just off-film (or sensor) there?

It looks like one.

 

[Soapy Sam]

jj- Orbs are a very frequent feature of pocket cameras, especially digital ones, with on-camera flash close to the lens axis.
Your gear is probably too good to produce them very often and you likely ditched those shots without a second thought anyway.

They are mostly due to out of focus reflection from very close dust or moisture particles. Occasionally they are actually due to dust inside the camera- on the anti-moire screen over the ccd for example. (I have a persistent spook in my Fuji 4700 of that type.)

Why anyone would think them to be anything other than optical artifacts is beyond my comprehension, yet I have repeatedly heard believers chant the following mantra-
"Well yes, some of them are caused like that, but you can't explain them all that way. Some of them must be evidence of spirit energy."

So there you have it. Logical argument and proof. QED

What? STILL not convinced? Good grief, man. You...you...YOU SCEPTIC!

 

[jj]

They are mostly due to out of focus reflection from very close dust or moisture particles. Occasionally they are actually due to dust inside the camera- on the anti-moire screen over the ccd for example. (I have a persistent spook in my Fuji 4700 of that type.)

Yuuucch. I won't comment on the camera design, then, but I know I can produce that kind of thing in almost any atmosphere if there's some dust or if there's a just-barely off-axis flash reflection.

Why anyone would think them to be anything other than optical artifacts is beyond my comprehension, yet I have repeatedly heard believers chant the following mantra-
"Well yes, some of them are caused like that, but you can't explain them all that way. Some of them must be evidence of spirit energy."

Well, perhaps due to activity with spirits, I would agree.

You know, Ferrand Reserve, Glenmorangie, Calem Port, ...

So there you have it. Logical argument and proof. QED

What? STILL not convinced? Good grief, man. You...you...YOU SCEPTIC!

Yeah, 'fraid so.

There's a reason I use flashes that are far away from the lens. Well, there's a variety of reasons, really... Then there's the idea of using two, for highlighting ...

But one flash, close to the lens axis. Um, they taught me that when I shot stuff for the yearbook. You don't want to know how far back that goes, either

 

[BillyJoe]

Looks like some massive lens flare.

That was my immediate thought - reflection of the flash back onto a dust covered lens.

 

[jj]

Re: Re: Orbs #2 in the commentary

That was my immediate thought - reflection of the flash back onto a dust covered lens.

Well, I hadn't thought of teeny-tiny cameras, and for that, Sam's explaination is even better.

In either case, the only spirits involved are poured in a glass and consumed, I think.

 

[Billy]

I agree that these "Orbs" are most likely crap on the lens ( as it is known in the trade) or maybe splashes that have dried on the lens. Even the smallest mark on a lens can come out the size of a football on the final print.

There are also several things that could cause these marks in the processing. Things like air bubbles from lack of agitation, or dust getting onto the film or into the printer.

In fact the whole Orb thing probably started as an excuse from a bucket shop processing lab.

 

[B.S]

Its dust in the air close to the camera. I make these kind of pictures all the time, just to show believers what it really is. Dust will do it, exactly like in the picture. And for anyone who wants to know, a hair or clothing fiber makes a nice "moving orb" picture. Exactly like the ones on the believer sites. Its easy.

 

[BillyJoe]

Do they even look different, dust on the lens ( as per my son Billy )
and dust in the air close to the camera (as per B(ull).S(hit). )?

 

[jj]

Do they even look different, dust on the lens ( as per my son Billy )
and dust in the air close to the camera (as per B(ull).S(hit). )?

I would expect the closer you get to the effective center of the lens, the bigger and more diffuse the "orbs" would get. I would doubt that much of the flash's light would leak to the lens front, though, so I wouldn't expect them to be illuminated, perhaps they'd be slightly darker?

That's simple optics.

Then again, now that I know what orbs are all about (I hadn't seen an example) I just have to wonder what people are thinking to even assume they are anything but dirt somewhere in the photographic chain.

 

[dang]

I have several orb photos, but I never knew about their "supernatural" origins until recently. I attend the Burning Man festival in Nevada's Black Rock desert, which is an extremely dusty environment. Some of the flash photos taken at night look they're in a snowstorm because there are so many orbs. What a coincidence...a dusty place, lots of orbs!

 

[BillyJoe]

Hmmm......air-born dust particles are beginning to look promising.


dang,

What's the Burning Man festival?

 

[BillyJoe]

Okay, I got it The Burning Man Festival. And I think I know why you go.

 

[MRC_Hans]

Technically, the orb is an image of the lens aperture; this is the reason it has sharp edges and often has a structured interior (a picture of nearly invisible dirt on the lens). It comes because a nearly point shaped light-source (usually the flash reflected from a dust particle, raindrop, etc.) in the image area. It does not even have to be out of focus, a point light-source may project an image of the lens at all focus lengths.

You can watch an orb without a camara: Take a small round shiny object. A steel ball is excellent, but a knee of a paper clip will do. Put it close to your eye, in a clear light. It is best if you can avoid the light shining directly into your eye, do it at the rim of a lampshade, or let sunlight strike the object from the side.

You will see the light in the object as an orb. Squint or blink your eye, and you see the orb flatten as your eyelids come down. You will also be able to see the fluid on your eyeball as you blink, and sometimes your eyelashes.

Some camaras make hexagonal orbs, because their lens aperture is hexagonal.

So, why do people want to think they are anything else? Simply because some people want desperately to believe.

As Randi says, believers are liars; they lie to themselves.

Hans

 

[BillyJoe]

Let me get this right.....light^* reflects off the lens/aperture onto a dust particle and then back through the lens onto the film where it forms an image of the lens/aperture?

^*from the sun or lamp or flash (reflecting back from something in front of the camera)

 

[sophia8]

The President of the American Ghost Society, no less, says that digital cameras are so unreliable at capturing accurate images that they should not be used in paranormal research. He gives his reasons here mentioning all the usual suspects.
One drawback of digital cameras he doesn't mention is that they often capture infra-red and UV light. Thus, any source of IR or UV in in front of the camera (from a remote-control car key being used, for instance) will show up in the photo as a vivd flash of light, completely invisible to witnesses at the scene.

Of course, telling some people all this won't shake their faith. A couple of weeks ago, somebody on another forum that I'm on took a whole load of 'ghost' photos with her digital camera at an allegedly haunted house one night and breathlessly posted them. I did some googling and posted a full explanation of what might have caused the orbs and misty patches, with references to various web-sites (including the Ghost Society one, to show that doubt about these type of photos was not confined to skeptics).
Which got totally ignored; everyone went on discussing ghosts. An illustration of Randi's "Seeing is not believing".

 

[MRC_Hans]

Let me get this right.....light^* reflects off the lens/aperture onto a dust particle and then back through the lens onto the film where it forms an image of the lens/aperture?

^*from the sun or lamp or flash (reflecting back from something in front of the camera)

No. Light (flash, sun, whatever intense enough) reflects off particle and into the lens. But because the light-source is virtually a point, it projects a shadow image of the aperture and lens on the light-sensitive surface (film, retina, camara chip). A pointy light-source projects sharp images at all focus-lengths. Just as a pinhole camara (camara obscura) has infinite focus depth.

Hans

 

[Billy]

If you watch a movie where there is a desert scene they often have the sunlight shining directly into the camera - for effect. This is what causes these hexagonal images to appear - sometimes there is one large one and progressively smaller ones in a row. I think this depends on how many elements are in the lens. The sun shines directly onto the aperture diaphram which reflects it's hexagonal shape back onto the glass elements which bounces back onto the film and gives this effect. They can appear in different colours depending on the coating on the lens.

I don't think this is the cause of these particular "Orbs" Taking pictures in that room with the workman and all that dust - well that's just asking for trouble.

As for people just desperately wanting to believe - well that sums it up really. On older cameras it was common for people to accidently double expose their pictures, they might get a ghostly image of someone or something in the picture who wasn't there when they took it. Most would see it for what it was, but as usual some saw it as postitive proof of the existance of ghosts. Usually they were people who made a roll of film last a couple of years and had no recollection of what images were on the film - so if the ghost image was of someone who had since died - so much the better! Try telling them otherwise.

 

[dang]

I think I get it. MRC_Hans' explanation made the most sense to me, though I'm not sure I totally get the part about the shadow image. Reminds me of those little points of light that appeared on photos taken out of space capsule windows by astronauts. The gullible and the fantasy-prone immediately saw aliens.

(The Burning Man festival is an amazing event in which people construct a city of 30,000 that exists for only one week, and in the middle of nowhere. It includes some of the most interesting art projects I ever seen--artists using flames, LCD lights, metal--you name it.) Burning Man

 

[MRC_Hans]

You can easily make a sort of camara obscura, just for demonstration purpose. Take a cardboard box. Cut a peep in the top, ans punch a small hole in the middle of one side. Now look into the pephole and direct the side with the small hole towards a window or some other bright object. You should see an inverted projection of the window or bright object on the side opposing the small hole.

Hans

 

[cedric_owl]

Another common orb creator is snow. This one is especially deceptive because you often can't tell just from looking at a photo that it was snowing at the time.