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OOS Collapse Propagation Model

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So how did Robertson design the building to take a 707 strike at x miles per hr? Does anyone here know what he did to make it "strong enough" to not????? fall down immediately on impact?

What would the difference be had he simply ignored a plane strike? Was this the same sort of design for wind shear?

Does flex mean that the joints have some "give" like an expansion joint in a bridge span?

We have heard many times that the towers were remarkably strong and were designed to take a plane strike... multiple ones one person stated and remain standing.

My sense is that the facade was like a huge membrane... that WAS a design innovation. It was a large plate / bearing wall because the staggering of the column joints and the very deep spandrel panels/beams which were extremely effective in redirecting vertical loads around missing/damaged facade columns. It was dense not open and at the time some believed this also made the high floors feel more secure with smaller windows.

OK experts explain how one adds the ability to sustain a plane strike other than beefing up the amount of steel?


The fact that the WTC can stand in a hurricane is why the plane does not push it over, a simple calculation of what the plane has vs the 200 mph hurricane. Thus the design resists being pushed down. Kind of free that a big plane impact can't push it over. The lateral strength of the WTC is what keeps high speed aircraft impacts from pushing it over; but it can't stop the plane from entering if over the design impact speed; you don't want the plane inside the WTC killing occupants like ESB tiny impact from a small plane.

Robertson designed the shell to stop a plane going 180 mph.
The design solution to meet the vision of the architect was to move the columns to the outside, which had to be strong enough to hold up the WTC, half of it, and strong enough to be the lateral support. The steel was also "stronger", various grades to meet the lateral support design.

The two towers were the first structures outside of the
military and nuclear industries designed to resist the
impact of a jet airliner, the Boeing 707.
https://www.nae.edu/Publications/Br...ecurity/ReflectionsontheWorldTradeCenter.aspx

https://www.nae.edu/File.aspx?id=7345

If you take the WTC ability to stand in a hurricane with massive lateral forces, you could calculate what it takes to push the WTC over, and a plane going 600 mph will not push the WTC over; instead the plane will enter the WTC until the KE is done. The WTC towers could survive the big hole in the side because the shell redistributes the load. The floor at still hanging on the remaining core and shell.

How did Robertson design the building to stop a plane? He knows the strength of the steel and his design. Why can't he design to stop a plane; it is called math and physics; not big talk, not googled up BS, and not just plain BS.
Robertson calculated it - you could do it today if you take the time.

Why did Robertson pick 180 mph? Only an idiot pilot would hit the WTC, one who is low on fuel and has no option when lost in the fog but to try land in the NYC area. If the pilot had fuel he would fly out of the fog, stop being lost and go to a suitable airfield. The speed limit below 10,000 feet is 250 knots; in the other post some engineers calculated the WTC would stop a 767 at 250 knots, a speed higher than Robertson.

An aircraft at 1000 feet should be configured to land, at or below 200 knots. What would you design for in an aircraft impact.

The ESB would not stop a tiny bomber, the WTC would. Different designs. The ESB stops the planes inside, the WTC stops the planes outside up to 250 knots. Too bad the terrorists pilots broke the "law", speeding below 10,000 feet like military pilots do sometimes.

Make the steel thicker, more than 20mm.
ftp://ftp.ecn.purdue.edu/ayhan/Korucu/Karim and Fatt_(ASCE)0733-9399(2005)131_10(1066).pdf
Check their work...
Robertson had to design for the lateral strength to survive a hurricane; it is not the same as stopping a plane at the shell. Robertson was interested in avoiding people being killed from an impact, like the ESB.
 
Fella,
Chill.. I googled and posted some quotes from engineers. Take it with them not me!'
I don't believe there was any attempt to design the towers to stand after a plane impact. I thought this was an after the fact calculation LERA made. I don't think most high rises would collapse immediately from a plane impact..but with fire and enough damage they probably would.

The towers collapse was ultimately caused by the effect of fire and the same with 7WTC.
 
Well, as I said a while back, analysis of the failure mode is a secondary question. Did the buildings perform well above what would be expected, marginally above what would be expected, or below what would be expected? In the first and third instances, the failure mode isn't actually very important.

Dave
 
He didn't. The fact that you still use this bit of misinformation says a lot about your position.

What exactly is my position?

Basically: the form of the collapse... was determined by the engineering design and the fabrication/erection.

Do you disagree? If so why?
 
I've lost track of the argument here (whatever happened to hive-thinking? ;))

After the fact Robertson briefly mused that he wished he'd designed sturdier buildings, but accepted that they would still have fallen eventually for any reasonable definition of 'sturdier'.

Nobody designs buildings to survive such assaults. Designs to provide more secure emergency egress, sure. I gather the new WTC7 was built with that in mind.
 
I've lost track of the argument here (whatever happened to hive-thinking? ;))

After the fact Robertson briefly mused that he wished he'd designed sturdier buildings, but accepted that they would still have fallen eventually for any reasonable definition of 'sturdier'.

Nobody designs buildings to survive such assaults. Designs to provide more secure emergency egress, sure. I gather the new WTC7 was built with that in mind.

I think the issue really is not about a building being serious messed up by a jet hitting it... any building would... the issue was what is a reasonable time for the thing to stand for people to get out. They didn't last long and they complete collapsed. 7wtc supposedly was an office fire... and it caused the tower to collapse completely... (I know the fire suppression system failed)... So this is not about jeez Louis the building was hit by a loaded jet. 7WTC was not... it's collapse was maybe 20-30 seconds once it got going. And the FDNY knew it was a goner in the afternoon after maybe 4 hrs of fire.

The fact that these design solutions are not popping up like hot cakes is telling.
 
I can argue anything I want....

Are you aware of any building using the WTC twin tower erector set concept? If it was such a successful deign, economical and strong and so on... it would be the rage. No?

7wtc? What is far exceeded "design" criteria you refer to?
 
7wtc? What is far exceeded "design" criteria you refer to?

It lasted far longer than design requirements would dictate, despite having at least two of it's fire protection systems defeated with the collapse of the towers.

Wouldn't you consider that a good design?

ETA: It's design is not unique. Unless you plan to blame the transfer trusses that you still can't show were involved. You're bias against authority is starting to get boring.
 
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It lasted far longer than design requirements would dictate, despite having at least two of it's fire protection systems defeated with the collapse of the towers.

Wouldn't you consider that a good design?

ETA: It's design is not unique. Unless you plan to blame the transfer trusses that you still can't show were involved. You're bias against authority is starting to get boring.

I don't about design criteria to last X number of minutes in fire. That's not in any code I know of so this is nonsense criteria.

I have no bias against authority.

And yes there were some very unique attributes of 7wtc... one being it was built over a power station, another that there were 30,000 gallons of diesel stored on site and partially inside the building and of course I don't know of any buildings which use massive transfer structures built on site bolted together from 6" thick plates to enable the 41 office floors to span the power station.

If you can cite something such as this then it wouldn't be unique. If not... I would call it unique.

Which two fire protections systems were defeated by the collapse of the tower 1?
 
It lasted far longer than design requirements would dictate, despite having at least two of it's fire protection systems defeated with the collapse of the towers.

Wouldn't you consider that a good design?

ETA: It's design is not unique. Unless you plan to blame the transfer trusses that you still can't show were involved. You're bias against authority is starting to get boring.

You forgot also it took a direct hit from the maximum collapse front of one of the towers,
that probably lead to structural damage that aided the collapse by fire.
 
What is the maximum collapse front mean?

The damage from falling steel did not extend very far past the SW corner gash. This may have ignited fires... but it was not cited as part of the collapse causes by NIST... and it's hard to image a damaged facade collapsing a building. Think Ronan Point.
 
What is the maximum collapse front mean?

The damage from falling steel did not extend very far past the SW corner gash. This may have ignited fires... but it was not cited as part of the collapse causes by NIST... and it's hard to image a damaged facade collapsing a building. Think Ronan Point.

400- 800 mph wind.
 
And yes there were some very unique attributes of 7wtc... one being it was built over a power station, another that there were 30,000 gallons of diesel stored on site and partially inside the building and of course I don't know of any buildings which use massive transfer structures built on site bolted together from 6" thick plates to enable the 41 office floors to span the power station.

So what? You still haven't shown it had any effect on the collapse.

If you can cite something such as this then it wouldn't be unique. If not... I would call it unique.

The only part that was unique, no one has shown to be to blame. Can you show me where it has?

Which two fire protections systems were defeated by the collapse of the tower 1?

Water(sprinklers) and compartmentalization. Certainly you don't disagree? Why mention tower 1, do you think it could be the only avenue of damage?
 
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400- 800 mph wind.

I don't know where those values come from.. I can't dispute them but they seen rather high. But why was the north the maximum? Where were these winds? at the ground level? If so wouldn't these sorts of winds have completely destroyed bldg 5 and 6?
 
So what? You still haven't shown it had any effect on the collapse.



The only part that was unique, no one has shown to be to blame. Can you show me where it has?



Water(sprinklers) and compartmentalization. Certainly you don't disagree?

I don't know what you mean by 1wtc destroying compartmentalization.

Blame?

The building collapsed as it did because the load transfer structures failed. You can argue what caused them to collapse or whether they collapsed first... but the form of the collapse indicates that the entire insides dropped first... Right?

I have shown it had effect... and several other engineers agree... among then the building's engineer and others such as Guy Nordenson... who I have actually worked with. Ask him what he thinks.

"Guy Nordenson is a structural engineer and professor of architecture and structural engineering at Princeton University. He studied at MIT and the University of California at Berkeley and began his career as a draftsman in the joint Long Island City studio of R Buckminster Fuller and Isamu Noguchi in 1976. From 1978 he has practiced structural engineering in San Francisco and New York. In 1987 he established the New York office of Ove Arup & Partners and was a director until 1997 when he began his independent practice.

In 1994 he co-founded the Structural Engineers Association of New York. With Terence Riley he was co-curator of the “Tall Buildings” exhibition held at MoMA QNS in 2004. His research project “On the Water | Palisade Bay” won the 2007 American Institute of Architects (AIA) College of Fellows Latrobe Research Prize, was published in 2010 by Hatje Cantz, and served as the inspiration for the 2010 MoMA workshop and exhibition “Rising Currents”. His book Seven Structural Engineers - The Felix Candela Lectures in Structural Engineering was published in 2008 by MoMA and a collection of essays Patterns and Structure in 2010 by Lars Müller Publishers. In 2009 Nordenson was the 7th structural engineer awarded the AIA’s Institute Honors for Collaborative Achievement Award, and the first practicing structural engineer ever elected fellow of the American Academy of Arts and Sciences. He is a member of the NYC Panel on Climate Change and was Commissioner and Secretary of the New York City Public Design Commission from 2006 to 2015, both mayoral appointments.

Nordenson was the structural engineer for the Museum of Modern Art expansion in New York, the Jubilee Church in Rome, the Simmons Residence Hall at MIT in Massachusetts, the Santa Fe Opera House, the New Museum of Contemporary Art in New York, the Nelson-Atkins Museum of Art in Kansas City, and over 100 other projects. Recent and current projects include the expansion of the Kimbell Art Museum in Fort Worth TX, the Corning Museum of Glass in Corning NY, the National Museum of African American History and Culture in Washington DC and in Houston TX both the Museum of Fine Arts and the Menil Drawing Institute and Study Center.

From the late 1970’s Nordenson was active in earthquake engineering research and code development, technology transfer, and long-range planning for FEMA and the USGS. He initiated and led the development of the New York City Seismic Code from 1984 to its enactment into Local Law 17/95 in 1995. Since 2007 he has been engaged in climate adaptation and flood hazards mitigation research and has been active in improving the resilience of New York City as a member of numerous committees and task forces including the NYS 2100 Commission appointed by Governor Andrew Cuomo and as director of the newly formed Jamaica Bay–Rockaway Parks Conservancy. In 2013 his research team at Princeton was awarded a major grant by the Rockefeller Foundation to develop “Structures of Coastal Resilience” in collaboration with the US Army Corps of Engineers and teams from Harvard, City College of NY and University of Pennsylvania. The results of this research have been published at www.structuresofcoastalresilience.org and were incorporated in the 2015 North Atlantic Comprehensive Study of the USACE."
 
Which two fire protections systems were defeated by the collapse of the tower 1?


- Lack of water pressure in the mains defeated sprinkler system.

- Normally-expected firefighter response was defeated by preoccupation of first responders.

- Floor to floor containment defeated by impact damage to floors from falling debris.

- Damping of ventilation, necessary for effective containment, defeated by broken facade glass.

- All regulations limiting ignition sources (e.g. making wiring code compliant) defeated by ignition from falling burning debris.

Have we reached two yet?
 
How about this re Guy Nordenson:

"The problem many have with the World Trade Center investigation is that it wasn't as open and not adequately peer reviewed, due in part to the veil of security concerns, so lots of people can disagree with the conclusions," Nordenson says. For instance, Nordenson himself is part of litigation suggesting the collapse of WTC 7 was not inevitable, but was due to design flaws in both the fire protection and some aspects of the structure."
 
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