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Old Testament Online

FreakBoy

Thinker
FreakBoy
Joined
Aug 14, 2001
Messages
176
Does anyone have a good link to an online version of the Old Testament, 5 books plus the rest, that wasn't backwards engineered from the Christian point of view?

I've been able to find a bazillion New Testaments online with the Old Testament books included, but I would like to be able to compare these with Old Testaments that originate from the Jewish point of view.



Thanks!
 
FreakBoy said:
Does anyone have a good link to an online version of the Old Testament, 5 books plus the rest, that wasn't backwards engineered from the Christian point of view?

I've been able to find a bazillion New Testaments online with the Old Testament books included, but I would like to be able to compare these with Old Testaments that originate from the Jewish point of view.



Thanks!
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Might try some of these sites -

http://www.torah.org/

http://www.jewfaq.org/torah.htm

http://bible.ort.org/books/torahd5.asp

Check them all, they appear to get closer to what you want further down the list ;)
 
read opening post more carefully and deleted my response

ETA:
One thing that might be relevant to this is that initially the dead sea scrolls seemed to support the Jewish (Masoretic) OT as the most original but when more dead sea scrolls were found support for the Septuagint as the most original text was also found.

Except that most if not all Christian versions of the OT are based on the Septuagint, I wasn't aware of any large differences between the Masoretic text and the OT in general. Perhaps FreakBoy had some specific examples in mind when he wrote the OP?
 
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davefoc said:
read opening post more carefully and deleted my response

ETA:
One thing that might be relevant to this is that initially the dead sea scrolls seemed to support the Jewish (Masoretic) OT as the most original but when more dead sea scrolls were found support for the Septuagint as the most original text was also found.

Except that most if not all Christian versions of the OT are based on the Septuagint, I wasn't aware of any large differences between the Masoretic text and the OT in general. Perhaps FreakBoy had some specific examples in mind when he wrote the OP?
Click to expand...

I know that there are at least one, and I think a few, examples of wording/meaning changes that concern (from a Christian view) the divinity of Christ. I can't site them off the top of my head, and I just woke up so I'm not even sure I can come up with an accurate general description. But there are at best some questionable choices of words in what most of us know as the Old Testament. At least one of these was actually changed (I hesitate to use corrected) in the Jehovah Witnesses version of the Bible (New World Bible?), and supports their view that Jesus was more a prophet than the son of God.

Hate making such a "no facts included" post. I'll try to post some passages after work tomorrow. Don't have time tonight.
 
My favorite on-line Bible (not just O.T.) is: http://www.biblegateway.com/

It's searchable and has a buttload of different versions (including over 20 English versions). What I like is that you can find a passage and then switch from one version to another.

Edit: I ditto davefoc's comments, but leave my original even after I read the OP more carefully.
 
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davefoc said:
read opening post more carefully and deleted my response

ETA:
One thing that might be relevant to this is that initially the dead sea scrolls seemed to support the Jewish (Masoretic) OT as the most original but when more dead sea scrolls were found support for the Septuagint as the most original text was also found.

Except that most if not all Christian versions of the OT are based on the Septuagint, I wasn't aware of any large differences between the Masoretic text and the OT in general. Perhaps FreakBoy had some specific examples in mind when he wrote the OP?
Click to expand...

Search for NRSV or RSV, these are the English versions many biblical scholars use. as for the Septuagint vs Jewish OT, different parts of both seem to be better origional sources, not just one or the other.

Most protestant bibles are based more on a translation of the Jewish OT than on the Septuagint (this was reactionary to the Catholic use of the Septuagint.)
 
Ryokan said:
Old Testament Online - The next big MMO!
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I beta-tested it. Character creation was a joke, you had to make your character from scratch - and by that I mean from dirt. You had to play a male, too, unless you could put up with being made from a rib and being made love to in the missionary position. Dunno, my female character protested that and got deleted by the GM. Maybe they didn't include that in the final release. Whatever.

I made a new character and I chose "Farmer" as my class. What a joke! One of the other beta-testers made some kind of hunter or shepherd or something, and the GM was all over him and his ideas. Screw that. I killed his character, and they "exiled" my character, since they didn't want to keep deleting a beta tester's characters, as I was doing them a favor. So, they were kind of in a bind. They couldn't kill my character, and they didn't want this whole player vs. player thing to go on. They marked me, exiled me, and up gave me my own city to run. That was cool.

I stopped playing when it got to the begats. BORING! Now, though, my friend is telling me he's got this character named "Samson" and he's a badass. I'm sure the GM's will nerf him in the next patch.

You know the game designers are getting lazy when the best weapon in the game is the mandible of a jackass.
 
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I like the skeptics site, but they overreach. I've found several of their contradictions and whatnot are actually legitimate with a contextual reading, which greatly weakens their overall presentation.
 
quixotecoyote said:
I like the skeptics site, but they overreach. I've found several of their contradictions and whatnot are actually legitimate with a contextual reading, which greatly weakens their overall presentation.
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True. But it does make an excellent reference site.

Now... where's the bit about spreading dung on faces? Ah, here it is, under Absurdities. Malachi 2:3.

Is it only me that pronounces that particular book as "ma-LAH-key" instead of "MAL-a-kye"?
 
This Guy said:
At least one of these was actually changed (I hesitate to use corrected) in the Jehovah Witnesses version of the Bible (New World Bible?), and supports their view that Jesus was more a prophet than the son of God.
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Jehovah's Witnesses fully believe that Jesus is the son of God, but that he is separate and distinct, not part of a trinity.
 
davefoc said:
Perhaps FreakBoy had some specific examples in mind when he wrote the OP?
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I was really looking to verify something I had heard either here, or in conversation elsewhere. It was suggested that there were differences in "most" (not my usage) Christian bibles in regards to what was said about the Messiah.

I've read through both the Hertz Commentary, and "Commentary on the Torah" by Richard E. Friedman a few times each, but didn't have anything that went beyond the first five books. I've been informed that Isaiah and Ezekiel were supposed to have some messianic prophecy in them but I've never read them myself.

Were there any other books/sections to look in regarding messianic prophecy?
 
ImaginalDisc said:
I beta-tested it. Character creation was a joke...
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I had problems with my character upon death. Bad consistency in the story line. One time my character res-ed in the clouds, another time surrounded by a bunch of virgins, another time inside a cave, and the last time I came back as a cow.
 
Fizzer said:
Jehovah's Witnesses fully believe that Jesus is the son of God, but that he is separate and distinct, not part of a trinity.
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I'll not argue your point. I don't know enough about them to make a call on the topic.

My impression was that they considered him somewhat less than devine, but I've never been clear on exactly how they define him.

Thanks for the correction :)
 
FreakBoy said:
I was really looking to verify something I had heard either here, or in conversation elsewhere. It was suggested that there were differences in "most" (not my usage) Christian bibles in regards to what was said about the Messiah.

I've read through both the Hertz Commentary, and "Commentary on the Torah" by Richard E. Friedman a few times each, but didn't have anything that went beyond the first five books. I've been informed that Isaiah and Ezekiel were supposed to have some messianic prophecy in them but I've never read them myself.

Were there any other books/sections to look in regarding messianic prophecy?
Click to expand...

There may be. I'll throw some links in below, to sites that at least touch on such things, from mostly atheistic points of view though.

As for Isaiah, one of the leading "Messianic Prophecies" would be Isaiah 7:11-20, to hear many Christians talk anyway. I'll state my view up front - I don't think it has anything to do with any event past the lives of those present at the time the "Prophecy" was given.

This is also one of the passages that the translation is disputed, and is really the only example I'm going to have time to provide.

The main word in contention is the word translated as Virgin in the King James version. A couple of years ago I stumbled across a reference that stated there was a problem with the Hebrew word used there. I spent quite a few hours searching around the net, looking for a Jewish reference that discussed the question. I found one, but didn't book mark it I'm afraid. But from what I was able to determine, it appears that even among Jews there is some disagreement on the word. Some say the word ("almah" in Hebrew I believe) means Virgin, others say Maiden, or Young Woman.

Various Bible translations differ on this word also. Most use virgin, but many have foot notes explaining the problem. Some examples -

Amplified Bible - Behold, the young woman who is unmarried and a virgin

Contemporary English Version - A virgin [c] is pregnant (Footnote - Isaiah 7:14 virgin: Or "young woman." In this context the difficult Hebrew word did not imply a virgin birth. However, in the Greek translation made about 200 (B.C. )and used by the early Christians, the word parthenos had a double meaning. While the translator took it to mean "young woman," Matthew understood it to mean "virgin" and quoted the passage (Matthew 1.23) because it was the appropriate description of Mary, the mother of Jesus.

New Century Version - The virgin[c] will be pregnant (Footnote - virgin The Hebrew word means "a young woman." Often this meant a girl who was not married and had not yet had sexual relations with anyone.

New Living Translation - The virgin[f] will conceive a child (Footnote - Or young woman)

Obviously (ignoring my stated opinion on Isaiah 7) if the prophecy concerned a young woman, and not a virgin, then there is no direct link between this passage and Jesus' birth hundreds of years later (200 I think). Of course the fact that the young woman was also apparently a prophetess conflicts with what we are told about Mary also. Isaiah 8.3 And I went unto the prophetess; and she conceived, and bare a son. Some may disagree that this is the same birth mentioned in 7.14, but I believe it is. At least some others agree with me. ;)


Some links -

http://members.aol.com/ckbloomfld/bepart16.html#ref1621 Scroll way down near the bottom, or just go to "Edit", "Find on this page" and look for Messianic Prophecy .

Others gave Biblegateway link. I like that also, but doesn't help much with what your interested in I don't think.

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/farrell_till/prophecy.html Been awhile since I read through this, but I think it at least touches on what your after. Even if it doesn't, it's interesting reading IMHO ;)

Just an amusing aside on this topic. I believe it was a mistranslation of the Greek (or a mistranslation IN the Greek version) that caused the writer of Matthew to show Jesus as a stunt rider (Matt. 21.7 KJV) - And brought the ass, and the colt, and put on them their clothes, and they set him thereon.

I woulda thought he would have ridden in standing, one foot on each, holding the reins in his teeth, at full gallop, firing a 6-shooter in each hand. But I guess he didn't want to scare the children ;)
 
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