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Objectivism v Subjectivism

You know...I thought I would try a hands off approach this time round and just do a once a day visit :rolleyes:

ok, loads of stuff here - some of it interesting, some of it the same old crap:)

We're not talking sollipsism (or is it solipsism?), Objectivism, atheism, logical deism. I would prefer to stick the dictionary definitions I have posted in the thread starter. I am aware there are Philosophical Baggage attached to the words Subjectivism and Objectivism, Subjective and Objective. These are interesting concepts and worthy of a thread of their own.

In this thread I'm interested in exploring how we emotionally (or not) view the world. I'm interested in the meanings of the word in that way that the common man or woman would use them.

I'll try and get to the interesting stuff tomorrow :)

Sou
 
Wow, I should have read Frank Newgent's Nietzsche quote before I posted.

There is only a perspective seeing, only a perspective "knowing"; and the more affects we allow to speak about one thing, the more eyes, different eyes, we can use to observe one thing, the more complete will our "concept" of this thing, our "objectivity," be.


Great minds think alike.
(But some are more eloquent!)
 
This is personal opinion so take it for what it's worth.
I hold objectivity to be a perception based on the greatest amount of facts regardless of personal bias.
I don't consider it possible, FOR ME, to be entirely objective.
I think akin to how I sense, with the apparatus I am endowed with.
There is always a lot of me in my opinions and beliefs regardless of how great an attempt I make at open-mindedness.
Just as the food I eat is digested and assimilated according to the matrix of my DNA and RNA I digest information and re-assimilate according to the matrix of my consciousness.
Again, this is just my opinion. This opinion and $2.65 will get you a number 2 special at any Rhode Island Dunkin' Donuts.
 
justsaygnosis said:
This opinion and $2.65 will get you a number 2 special at any Rhode Island Dunkin' Donuts.

Dammit!! Now I have the muchies.
 
Thorin LungHammer said:


Dammit!! Now I have the muchies.

Be sure to stop at the East Street exit Dunkin' Donuts in Pawtucket at the end of the S curves on 95 North just before you hit Attleboro MA. ! It's a 24 hour truck stop D+D and they fry and bake dough constantly.....THE BEST!!!!
As much as they're a great team the Yankees still S*%K.
 
justsaygnosis said:

Be sure to stop at the East Street exit Dunkin' Donuts in Pawtucket at the end of the S curves on 95 North just before you hit Attleboro MA. ! It's a 24 hour truck stop D+D and they fry and bake dough constantly.....THE BEST!!!!
As much as they're a great team the Yankees still S*%K.
Yeah, that's why I've become a Red Sox fan.
 
This thread (having reached page 2) is now free to return to its original topic

(Bump!)
 
OK GP - I'm very susceptible to guilt.

One comment I want to make about something that BillyTK said :)

Do we have a subconscious? - or do we just think we do? :p

I cannot deny that sometimes on reflection, the reasons I had for doing something appear to be a little different than that which I thought at the time.

I also watch other people act in a way which is a bloody obvious self justification yet they believe what they are saying implicitly.

This ability to hide what we obviously perceive as unpalatable truths about ourselves is something that I am happy to label subconsciousness. But if we don't label it that - then what do we label it as?

Or is there an "it" to label:p

Sou
 
Sou has an interesting and intriguing point on the subconscious.
Memory is still relatively unmapped territory in the human psyche.
Does stored regressive memory dominate our thought process so much that it tends to over-rule our ability to be as objective as possible?
I know I'm as guilty as anyone for evaluating people on the basis of who they remind me of rather than taking each encounter for a true 'present' experience.
 
Everyone is capable of doing some things on auto-pilot, from simple things like breathing to walking or playing a musical instrument. But we can direct our conscious thoughts to these processes. Are there some that we can't?

Some puzzles/con tricks try to take advantage of this programmed, "invisible" thinking. eg:

Three men go into a restaurant. They order their meal, eat it and ask for the bill.
It's $30. They each pay $10. And the waiter takes the money to the cashier, who informs him that there has been an error in totalling the bill. It should have been $25. So he gives the waiter five $1 coins (if they exist - I heard the version with pounds!) and he goes back to the three men to give them their change.

Except that he's dishonest. He gives $1 each to the three customers. So in effect they each spent $9, which makes a total of $27. The waiter kept two, so that makes
$27 + $2 = $29

But we started with $30.
Where did the missing dollar go?
 
Soubrette said:
OK GP - I'm very susceptible to guilt.
That's your super-ego in action, Sou ;)

One comment I want to make about something that BillyTK said :)

Do we have a subconscious? - or do we just think we do? :p
Well, like I said, it's a model--a useful model nonetheless, but with limitations. However, there's something called Social Representations, which are shared concepts, beliefs and assumptions we use to make sense of ourselves and the world around us; so you get something like Freud's conscious/subconscious/unconscious concept which people take and amend to apply to everyday situations. For instance, my old HCI tutor beleived his brain was a computer and behaved on that basis; I, as a lapsed catholic, rationalise my behaviour in terms of having to compensate for an over-active superego (the guilt-making bit of Freud's trinity). So the way we perceive ourselves affects our perception of reality--in doing so, does it make what we perceive about ourselves "real"?

I cannot deny that sometimes on reflection, the reasons I had for doing something appear to be a little different than that which I thought at the time.
This one's kind of easy--memory's also a bit of a slippery weasel as well, and we've got a tendency to edit the memory of our intentions in response to the reception our behaviour elicited. But we've also got a tendency to rationalise our intentions in anticipation of how we'd like that behaviour to be perceived. It's only later we realise we were, after all, acting like jeks. Or I do anyway ;)

I also watch other people act in a way which is a bloody obvious self justification yet they believe what they are saying implicitly.

This ability to hide what we obviously perceive as unpalatable truths about ourselves is something that I am happy to label subconsciousness. But if we don't label it that - then what do we label it as?

Or is there an "it" to label:p

Sou
Again--a fairly easy one to explain using a couple of concepts, cognitive dissonance and the fundamental attribution error. Very very simply, cognitive dissonance arises as a result between the perception and reality of a thing, and so people use a number of strategies to reduce this dissonance. One of the handiest ways uses the fundamental attribution error; this error is that people/things we like are innately good and any bad things they cause is the result of external factors; but people/things we don't like are innately bad, and any good they cause is because of external factors.

So if you tell me a few home-truths about me, these would innevitably cause me some degree of cognitive dissonance because after all, I am the epitome of sweetness and light. If I like you, then I would rationalise that you're only saying such because you're under the weather/having a hard time/stressed etc etc, but if I didn't like you, then you would be telling me these things because you're a tosser (which I'm sure you're not btw ;) ).

Human behaviour-wise I'm a determinist--I believe that behaviour is a result of a complex interaction between past history (learned experiences), meaning (how I rationalise my past experiences) and environment (situational specificity--how particular locations evoke relevant past experiences. I don't believe in free will other than as a necessary political construct. As for free will/determinism in the laws of physics sense, I have no idea! ;)

But the thing about determinism in behaviour is that it's enabling as well as constraining--we're not simply impotent observers of our own behaviour, because without this prior experience to guide our behaviour we'd have no basis for doing anything--it'd take you hours to get out of bed in a morning--even if you knew that you had to! And although the way we attirubute meaning to both our and others actions is problematic, without these strategies we'd go mad with having to deal with even the most casual situation!
 

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