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http://blog.al.com/live/2010/06/feds_refuse_to_provide_spill_r.html
THEN, these big oil companies (who by the way have been giving millions of dollars to politicians on both sides) might actually feel the need to do things properly. Because obviously under this and past administrations, they haven't. Well, at least under this one for sure. :D

I was not aware that the government was telling the oil companies exactly how much protection they needed. They may have rules on the MINIMUM but if an oil company sees additional risk and ways to allay those risks then they will make a decision whether they should or not. Nothing in current law stops them from doing so.

So what makes you think if we got rid of MMS and govt regulation that oil companies would be safer than they are today? As I said, they COULD have operated safer but chose not to.
 
I was not aware that the government was telling the oil companies exactly how much protection they needed. They may have rules on the MINIMUM but if an oil company sees additional risk and ways to allay those risks then they will make a decision whether they should or not. Nothing in current law stops them from doing so.

Ah, but the government requiring that oil companies get approval for their plans puts the onus for making sure those plans are correct squarely on the government and noone else. This is a well established principle. It's called "good practice" and professionals in all sorts of disciplines who are licensed by the government to work fall back on it all the time when something goes wrong in a building or operation or so and so forth. It's a quite successful defense in court. By giving itself the power to license and set minimum standards, the government assumes responsibility for public safety as long as those they license meet the standards set by the government.
 
Ah, but the government requiring that oil companies get approval for their plans puts the onus for making sure those plans are correct squarely on the government and noone else. This is a well established principle. It's called "good practice" and professionals in all sorts of disciplines who are licensed by the government to work fall back on it all the time when something goes wrong in a building or operation or so and so forth. It's a quite successful defense in court. By giving itself the power to license and set minimum standards, the government assumes responsibility for public safety as long as those they license meet the standards set by the government.

True, and I agree to a certain extent.

One thing to remember in all of this is we have not yet determined the root cause of the disaster. From what I have heard, it was operational practices that BP chose to follow (circulating out mud and replaceing with water for example). If that is the case, those operational practices are not determined by the government but by the oil company. In that case, the government has no liability, right?

Still waiting on this other question. I fear you do not want to answer because you do not want to cast your heros in a bad light. Here is the question again, in case you missed it.

Do you think Hannity, O'Reilly, Limbaugh (and others) are right or wrong when the say that the reason we are deepwater drilling is because environmentalists have forced them into deep water by not allowing drilling on land or in shallower coastal waters.
 
Do you think Hannity, O'Reilly, Limbaugh (and others) are right or wrong when the say that the reason we are deepwater drilling is because environmentalists have forced them into deep water by not allowing drilling on land or in shallower coastal waters.
I'll take a shot.

This idea is partially correct in that shallower water and land reserves exist in the US that cannot be drilled due to envirnmentalist pressures on politicians.

That's not the whole story though. Any large fields remaining to be discovered are most likely in deep water; the effort get to them now appear to exceed current technology and is probably uneconomic at current oil price. Oil at $70-80/bbl unfortunately added strong reasons to contain costs.

BP, Transocean, and to a much lesser degree MMS are fully to blame for the current disaster.
 
I'll take a shot.

This idea is partially correct in that shallower water and land reserves exist in the US that cannot be drilled due to envirnmentalist pressures on politicians.
Thanks, and I agree. But the current deep water wells we have right now would still have been drilled even if those environmental restrictions had not been in place.
That's not the whole story though. Any large fields remaining to be discovered are most likely in deep water; the effort get to them now appear to exceed current technology and is probably uneconomic at current oil price. Oil at $70-80/bbl unfortunately added strong reasons to contain costs.

BP, Transocean, and to a much lesser degree MMS are fully to blame for the current disaster.

We have plenty of wells in deep water right now that are economically viable. I think you were referring to even deeper prospects, which is also true. We will follow technology advancements out into deeper waters as needed.

As to blame, I think you are correct in your assessment. I might even add the Obama administration for their less than stellar response.
 
One thing to remember in all of this is we have not yet determined the root cause of the disaster. From what I have heard, it was operational practices that BP chose to follow (circulating out mud and replaceing with water for example). If that is the case, those operational practices are not determined by the government but by the oil company. In that case, the government has no liability, right?
When the timeline is finally established, it will almost certainly show that there were multiple reasons for the accident. Assigning "percent at fault" will be a job that will make a lot of lawyers very rich.

Do you think Hannity, O'Reilly, Limbaugh (and others) are right or wrong when the say that the reason we are deepwater drilling is because environmentalists have forced them into deep water by not allowing drilling on land or in shallower coastal waters.
I can tell you that is untrue, at least in the US part of the Gulf of Mexico. The shallow water or "shelf" in the Gulf of Mexico is simply played out. Sure, there are still fields that are producing and probably some small fields that are yet to be discovered, but the "elephants" are almost certainly all gone. Small companies can play the shelf for many years and make enough for them to survive. But for a big company to make a profit, they must discover a LOT of oil. My company dropped almost all its activity in the shelf about five years ago to focus on deep water. It had nothing to do with environmental laws.
 
One thing to remember in all of this is we have not yet determined the root cause of the disaster.

But Obama, the democrat demogogues in Congress, the liberal mainstream media, and even some around here at JREF sure act like they've already determined that BP is the root cause … shoulders 100% of the blame. They've even said it. There has been hardly a mention about the government's role in all this by Obama, the democrats controlling Congress or the MSM. Just deflection by them of charges they were involved. Has anyone from MMS been grilled before Congress yet?

From what I have heard, it was operational practices that BP chose to follow (circulating out mud and replaceing with water for example). If that is the case, those operational practices are not determined by the government but by the oil company. In that case, the government has no liability, right?

Oh there is no doubt that BP has considerable liability in this. I'm not suggesting otherwise. But we should leave to courts to really figure that out and punish it. Rather than starting out pointing fingers, like the Obama administration and democrats did, before we knew any facts and while the catastophe was unfolding.

And part of the overall *system* … part of what the government stated was required in it's own laws …. was a DETAILED environmental and safety analysis, and advanced preparation for what to do if something went wrong. And we already know for a fact the government has been entirely remiss in those two departments. They waived the detailed environmental and safety analysis requirement. And they had basically NO preparations for what to do in the event of a large blowout. They set the standards … so they share the responsibility if they then waive those standards.

Afterall, they certainly knew that blowouts are possible .. especially in deep Gulf of Mexico water … because there have already been many blowouts in recent years. They certainly knew that a large blowout was possible. There have already been examples of large blowouts around the world and physics is physics. They simply waived those concerns away when they elected not to do the detailed analyses. Perhaps because of the way the government allows (and yes, they don't have to allow it) oil companies to lobby them and buy political influence. The bottom line is if those analyses had been done and preparations made (as was required by laws already passed), we wouldn't be sitting here debating this right now.

Because this would never have developed into the catastrophe it has become. The oil coming from the well would have been skimmed and burned in the vicinity of the well, rather than being ALLOWED to approach the beaches as it has. If the Obama administration had even accepted the help offered by the Dutch and others the first few days after the explosion, this wouldn't be the catastrophe it's become. No, administration lawyers (because lawyers is virtually all this administration consists of) claimed the Jones Act prevented that from happening. But George Bush waived the Jones Act within 24 of Katrina. Why couldn't Obama? Again, responsibility for that lies squarely on the Obama administration. And you know where the buck stops … in the oval office. Which is why this is Obama's Katrina.

By the way, now the Obama adminstration is using other excuses for not responding effectively to this crisis where oil skimmers are concerned: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QyyL50dFkMc&feature=player_embedded . It would be laughable if the consequences weren't so serious.

Another issue is the government's involvement in the shut off (blow out prevention) system. In my view, this is a key liability on their part. Things go wrong despite the best intentions. No technology is without unknowns and flaws. No construction is always perfect. That's why blowout preventers are deemed necessary (and mandated elsewhere in the world). And this particular blowout preventer was being used at depths it had not been designed for. Plus there were signs of problems well before the accident:

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/30/us/30rig.html?pagewanted=all

The documents show that in March, after problems on the rig that included drilling mud falling into the formation, sudden gas releases known as “kicks” and a pipe falling into the well, BP officials informed federal regulators that they were struggling with a loss of “well control.”

On at least three occasions, BP records indicate, the blowout preventer was leaking fluid, which the manufacturer of the device has said limits its ability to operate properly.

“The most important thing at a time like this is to stop everything and get the operation under control,” said Greg McCormack, director of the Petroleum Extension Service at the University of Texas, Austin, offering his assessment about the documents.

He added that he was surprised that regulators and company officials did not commence a review of whether drilling should continue after the well was brought under control.

After informing regulators of their struggles, company officials asked for permission to delay their federally mandated test of the blowout preventer, which is supposed to occur every two weeks, until the problems were resolved, BP documents say.

At first, the minerals agency declined.

“Sorry, we cannot grant a departure on the B.O.P. test further than when you get the well under control,” wrote Frank Patton, a minerals agency official. But BP officials pressed harder, citing “major concerns” about doing the test the next day. And by 10:58 p.m., David Trocquet, another M.M.S. official, acquiesced.

“After further consideration,” Mr. Trocquet wrote, “an extension is approved to delay the B.O.P. test until the lower cement plug is set.”

When the blowout preventer was eventually tested again, it was tested at a lower pressure — 6,500 pounds per square inch — than the 10,000-pounds-per-square-inch tests used on the device before the delay. It tested at this lower pressure until the explosion.

You want to talk about root causes of this disaster. Read that article. It was the government's responsibilty to make sure the blow out preventer would work under the drilling circumstances being used. Instead, they just approved what was installed without much in the way of analysis, test or thought. The last sentence in that article is telling: "Less than 10 minutes after the request was submitted, federal regulators approved the permit."

Again one must wonder at the motivations in doing that in an administration that promised to bring us *change* in regards to lobbying, public safety, and the environment. The government demands oversight power and so it should get oversight responsibility as well. That's the way it works. If you grab the power, you get the responsibility/liability too. That's a time tested principle in courts of law. Why change it? Because Obama is king?

In fact, do you know that a few years back, the government elected not to require a remote (acoustic) shut off system (a backup to the primary shutoff). Even though they are routinely used by many other countries. Now the fact that BP argued against them doesn't relieve the government of doing a detailed analyis to determine their need and utility, and mandating them if they made sense. Norway has had them on every drilling rig since 1993. Here in the US, a MMS report concluded that "acoustic systems are not recommended because they tend to be very costly." The question is to whom?

Still waiting on this other question.

Well, you are not going to get one now because of your dishonesty in the way you posed it originally. Besides, I really think I already answered it, if you'd bother to read what I've already posted. :D
 
It had nothing to do with environmental laws.

Tricky, this whole discussion of how much of a role environmental laws played in moving drilling to deep water is completely off topic. Prior to Lurker bringing that discussion into this thread in post #255, by falsely accusing me of taking a position I did not, this was not being discussed at all. There is absolutely no mention of it in the OP or in the intervening 254 posts. I would therefore ask that you, Lurker and anyone else who wants to discuss it, take that discussion to a new thread. It has nothing to do with deciding whether this is Obama's Katrina or not.
 
Bac, are you the thread police? If we want to post it to a broad topic like this thread we can.

I agree with Tricky in that everything I know about the oil industry says we would be in deepwater development no matter what the environmental policies are. If we truly had large hydrocarbon deposits on land or in coastal waters then we might not be there but we do not have the large reservoirs in those locations (ANWR has large potential but northern Alaska is not an easy development - and still it is not enough to deter deepwater exploration).

So it is clear Limbaugh, Hannity, O'Reilly and a bunch of conservatives who blame environmentalists are just plain lying, grossly ignorant, or playing politics. I think it is all three. But I am interested in your opinion, BAC. Will you dare go against the conservative meme being put out there?

Do you think Hannity, O'Reilly, Limbaugh (and others) are right or wrong when the say that the reason we are deepwater drilling is because environmentalists have forced them into deep water by not allowing drilling on land or in shallower coastal waters.
 
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BAC:

Do you think Hannity, O'Reilly, Limbaugh (and others) are right or wrong when the say that the reason we are deepwater drilling is because environmentalists have forced them into deep water by not allowing drilling on land or in shallower coastal waters?
 
BAC:

Do you think Hannity, O'Reilly, Limbaugh (and others) are right or wrong when the say that the reason we are deepwater drilling is because environmentalists have forced them into deep water by not allowing drilling on land or in shallower coastal waters?

Why do you keep asking this? What is the point?
 
Why do you keep asking this? What is the point?
I am curious as to BAC's position on this. Does he believe that we were pushed out to deepwater drilling by environmental policies, as Limbaugh, Oreilly and Hannity would have you believe. I had incorrectly ascribed a position to him so I apologized for doing so and then asked him what his position was just so I could be clear.
 
http://newsbusters.org/blogs/p-j-gl...l-response-cracks-latest-ap-rep#ixzz0sevLpdY7

Perhaps it is frustration, as expressed by Anderson Cooper, with the new White House rules inhibiting reports about the Gulf of Mexico oil spill that is now causing a big crack in the Mainstream Media wall which until recently mostly avoided direct criticism of the Obama administration response. However that crack has now turned into a flood of surprising criticism coming from formerly friendly outlets such as the Associated Press. ... snip ...

NEW ORLEANS — BP and the Obama administration face mounting complaints that they are ignoring foreign offers of equipment and making little use of the fishing boats and volunteers available to help clean up what may now be the biggest spill ever in the Gulf of Mexico.

The Coast Guard said there have been 107 offers of help from 44 nations, ranging from technical advice to skimmer boats and booms. But many of those offers are weeks old, and only a small number have been accepted. The vast majority are still under review, according to a list kept by the State Department.

... snip ...

A report prepared by investigators with the House Committee on Oversight and Government Reform for Rep. Darrell Issa, R-Calif., detailed one case in which the Dutch government offered April 30 to provide four oil skimmers that collectively could process more than 6 million gallons of oily water a day. It took seven weeks for the U.S. to approve the offer.

... snip ...

Billy Nungesser, president of Louisiana's hard-hit Plaquemines Parish, said BP and the Coast Guard provided a map of the exact locations of 140 skimmers that were supposedly cleaning up the oil. But he said that after he repeatedly asked to be flown over the area so he could see them at work, officials told him only 31 skimmers were on the job.


Obama's Katrina.
 
http://08hayabusa.blogspot.com/2010/07/obamas-deliberate-katrina.html

Obama's Deliberate Katrina

… snip …

How else can anyone explain the litany of bureaucratic decisions that have squandered opportunities to shield beaches, fisheries and estuaries from the expanding slick, before hurricanes hammer cleanup efforts? Ponder this unconscionable malfeasance by the EPA, Corps of Engineers, Interior Department, Fish and Wildlife Service, OSHA, Justice Department, White House and Congress, which:

* Exempted BP from normal environmental reviews, from requirements that BP have viable plans in place and equipment on location to deal with any blowout and spill, and from oversight of its intended removal of drilling muds from the drillstem despite signs of dangerous pressure building in the well.

* Opposed surface and subsurface use of dispersants and rejected offers of dispersants from Britain.

* Compelled crews to employ 4-inch hoses to vacuum up oil by the quart, after President Obama objected that he “can’t suck it up with a straw.” Rejected state-of-the-art skimmers from the Netherlands, because the skimmers send a little oil back into the ocean, while collecting seawater mixed with oil, segregating the oil and discharging the water. (EPA demands that any water discharged from the skimmer be 99.99% oil-free. In other words, it demands that all the oil be left in the ocean, to be driven onto beaches and into sensitive estuaries – rather than permitting ships to collect 95% of the oil, and discharge the rest.)

* Rejected other state-of-the-art vessels, because the Jones Act prohibits the use of even specialized foreign crews in US waters. All together, says the State Department, the feds have rejected 21 offers of help from 17 different nations. (The president could waive the Jones Act, as President Bush did after Katrina, but apparently doesn’t want to offend his union allies.)

* Stands poised to reject help from the Taiwanese tanker-turned-skimmer, “A Whale,” which is now steaming toward the Gulf, to aid the cleanup – on the same bogus Jones Act and “pollution” grounds.

* Refused to allow the building of berms, because dredge and fill operations might cause environmental impacts – as though the massive intrusion of oil into marshlands would have no effect on wildlife.

* Forced Alabama to remove barriers it had installed to protect the state’s beaches, and move them to Louisiana waters.

* Appointed a scientific advisory board to guide the spill response – then falsely claimed the panel had approved the imposition of a drilling moratorium that was actually added to its recommended actions only after the scientists had signed off on the proposed plan. The drilling ban’s severe impacts on Gulf state employment and revenues were ignored by Interior and the White House, which likewise ignored a Federal District Court order to lift the moratorium until the matter could be fully adjudicated.

* Appointed an oil spill investigation panel that includes the dean of the Harvard Engineering School, a former EPA administrator, the head of an anti-drilling environmental activist group, an anti-oil former US senator, and three others. Not one has actual expertise or experience in drilling or oil spill cleanup.

* Threatened criminal prosecutions, thereby chilling witness discussions and testimony, rather than working to learn what precisely went wrong on April 27 and coordinate a successful cleanup effort.

* Held congressional inquisition hearings, to grandstand, browbeat industry officials, and gloss over MMS regulatory and oversight failures – long before a factual investigation could be completed into the accident and response to it, and amid threats of criminal prosecution for anything witnesses might say.
 
I followed the link. The first thing I got was a pop-up in my face that read "I DON'T BELIEVE THE LIBERAL MEDIA."

You can't make a horse by another name drink water if they don't want to. :)

And I go on many an MSM site and you find the mantra "don't believe FauxNews, talk radio or the conservative media". That doesn't stop me from at least reading their articles or listening to what they report (sometimes they do get it right) before I decide if they are full of it.

Finally, my advice is get a Mac. You won't get so many popups. :D
 

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