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NY Times Poll: Large Majority of DEMOCRATS Oppose Transgenders in Women's Sports

Brainster said:
Once again you bravely pronounce your opposition to something that nobody anywhere has suggested.
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FYI, theprestige is the one who brought that up, not me, but go ahead and keep deluding yourself that it was me:


theprestige

Post in thread 'NY Times Poll: Large Majority of DEMOCRATS Oppose Transgenders in Women's Sports'

AmyStrange said:
True, but not every male has great stats.
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Let's start over.

Do you believe that women's sports leagues should be required by law to allow a man to compete, if he says he wants to?

Do you believe women's prisons should be required by law to house a male prisoner, if he says that's what he wants?
 
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acbytesla said:
Most of the Transwomen I have met are interested in men sexually. I don't see many of them ogling women. The proble seems much more likely to me is women having a knee jerk reaction knowing or thinking that a person in the changing room might be male.
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"You silly females, getting all hysterical about nothing, you're totally just imagining it. I know I haven't actually experienced it personally, and I can't be bothered to actually look at what's going on in the world, or read what transgender identified males themselves post all over the internet about how they think about females and the things they do in female restrooms... but you know, since I haven't experienced it haven't looked into it, I'm absolutely certain that you females are just overreacting. You should all calm down."
 
acbytesla said:
Men are going to ogle. I don't think you can stop that. Even some women ogle. You might consider that a violation. Which I understand. But I doubt we can stop that. I'm certainly in favor of Trans individuals being able to use
whatever bathroom they are comfortable with. As for other areas, I would prefer that people might be adult about it. That anyone wouldn't use such facilities to ogle or display their wares.
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I think you are missing something right here. You're in favor of trans-women using the bathroom they are comfortable in. Which implies that it's understandable for them to be uncomfortable in the other bathroom. Understandable.

But you dismiss the idea that males being in the women's bathrooms might make females uncomfortable. In your next post, I think you said they were over-reacting. Even though the reasons for that are pretty similar to the reason a trans woman would feel uncomfortable in a men's room.

Don't get me wrong. To an extent I get where you're coming from. But it doesn't make sense to handwave the concerns of the people you disagree with. Solving a discomfort issue for one group by creating a discomfort issue for another group doesn't really solve anything.

Both groups have legitimate reasons for discomfort.
Maybe look for a solution that eliminates the discomfort rather than just transfer it to someone else. Or at least recognize the legitimacy of the other party's concerns when discussing the issue and/or looking at solutions.
 
I know the numbe of transgender individuals are an extremely small number of people.
Emily's Cat said:
"You silly females, getting all hysterical about nothing, you're totally just imagining it. I know I haven't actually experienced it personally, and I can't be bothered to actually look at what's going on in the world, or read what transgender identified males themselves post all over the internet about how they think about females and the things they do in female restrooms... but you know, since I haven't experienced it haven't looked into it, I'm absolutely certain that you females are just overreacting. You should all calm down."
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By far the greatest number of anti-transgender bigots I've experienced are men. Like 50 to 1. But you're right. I've never been in a woman in a woman's changing room. So I don't know your experience.. Maybe the culture is different with women. I get in and out as fast as I can in the changing rooms. I don't see it as a place to lounge. Is that what you do? Hang out half dressed or naked speaking with other women?
 
TomB said:
I think you are missing something right here. You're in favor of trans-women using the bathroom they are comfortable in. Which implies that it's understandable for them to be uncomfortable in the other bathroom. Understandable.

But you dismiss the idea that males being in the women's bathrooms might make females uncomfortable. In your next post, I think you said they were over-reacting. Even though the reasons for that are pretty similar to the reason a trans woman would feel uncomfortable in a men's room.

Don't get me wrong. To an extent I get where you're coming from. But it doesn't make sense to handwave the concerns of the people you disagree with. Solving a discomfort issue for one group by creating a discomfort issue for another group doesn't really solve anything.

Both groups have legitimate reasons for discomfort.
Maybe look for a solution that eliminates the discomfort rather than just transfer it to someone else. Or at least recognize the legitimacy of the other party's concerns when discussing the issue and/or looking at solutions.
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No I don't. If you dress like a woman, chances are you will blend in better in the Ladies room. How would a woman know if the person was a male in female's clothes or a female? I would argue they don't.
 
Men are almost always instantly recognisable to women as men, no matter what they're dressed in, but if they put on a dress or a skirt it's obvious because they just look ridiculous.

Most of the women I know wear a shirt/jumper and trousers far more often than they do a dress or skirt. In fact, I'd say a man stands more chance, rather than less, of passing as female if they dress in a loose jumper and slacks rather than what is traditionally considered women's clothing.
 
Pixel42 said:
Men are almost always instantly recognisable to women as men, no matter what they're dressed in, but if they put on a dress or a skirt it's obvious because they just look ridiculous.

Most of the women I know wear a shirt/jumper and trousers far more often than they do a dress or skirt. In fact, I'd say a man stands more chance, rather than less, of passing as female if they dress in a loose jumper and slacks rather than what is traditionally considered women's clothing.
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A friend of mine was the beverage manager and head bartender at the Swedish Club in Seattle. And he would hire me to tend bar on occasions. Weddings mostly. But for other events too. Every year they hosted a beauty contest of sorts for transsexuals and transvestites. It was a shock to my middle class upbringing. But what was more shocking how outside of a few that were obvious men, most absolutely looked like women. That a straight heterosexual man like me would be all over. So no, I don't believe women have some sixth sense and just know the she was a he.
 
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acbytesla said:
A friend of mine was the beverage manager and head bartender at the Swedish Club in Seattle. And he would hired me to tend bar on occasions. Weddings mostly. But for other events too. Every year they hosted a beauty contest of sorts for transsexuals and transvestites. It was a shock to my middle class upbringing. But what was more shocking how outside of a few that were obvious men, most absolutely looked like women. That a straight heterosexual man like me would be all over. So no, I don't believe women have some sixth sense and just know the he was a she.
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I for one do not dispute that there are a lot of men that could successfully pass as women, for short periods, with lots of preparation, in favorable lighting, in front of a favorable audience.

But this has absolutely nothing to do with the majority public opinion that men shouldn't be participating in women's sports. Lia Thomas in a ladies' swimsuit will never look female enough to justify competing in women's swimming competitions, no matter how aggressively he tucks or how much his contouring makeup is on fleek.
 
theprestige said:
I for one do not dispute that there are a lot of men that could successfully pass as women, for short periods, with lots of preparation, in favorable lighting, in front of a favorable audience.

But this has absolutely nothing to do with the majority public opinion that men shouldn't be participating in women's sports. Lia Thomas in a ladies' swimsuit will never look female enough to justify competing in women's swimming competitions, no matter how aggressively he tucks or how much his contouring makeup is on fleek.
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You're right it doesn't. I was responding to what you posted.
 
acbytesla said:
I know the numbe of transgender individuals are an extremely small number of people.
By far the greatest number of anti-transgender bigots I've experienced are men. Like 50 to 1. But you're right. I've never been in a woman in a woman's changing room. So I don't know your experience.. Maybe the culture is different with women. I get in and out as fast as I can in the changing rooms. I don't see it as a place to lounge. Is that what you do? Hang out half dressed or naked speaking with other women?
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Interactions among females are extremely different than among males. And yes, we probably do spend more time in there than males do. Female-only spaces are the only spaces outside of our own homes where we're safe from males. Not all males, certainly, but enough to make it something that lives in our heads almost all the time. Don't get me wrong, we're not walking around in a constant state of panic... but almost all females from puberty on are aware of the males around them, aware of what we're wearing, how we're sitting, whether or not someone can see down our blouse, whether our underwear are printing, whether this outfit is too revealing and we'll be assumed to be a floosy without a brain or whether it's too conservative and we'll be assumed to be an uptight killjoy, whether we're smiling at a male too much and they might think it's a come-on or whether we're not smiling enough and they're going to demand that we smile or frown at us for having RBF, whether if we say something nice they'll start flirting with us... and yes - whether that male over there seemed skitchy and scary, and whether we should walk down that alley alone, and whether we should ask someone to walk us to our car at night or just get the pepper spray out.

Like I said, it's not like we're always anxious. It's more like we're always walking around with a great big rucksack. The weight is okay, we're used to it... but we're always aware of it, we have to take it into consideration as we move through the world. The only time we get to set it down is 1) when we're in our own homes and 2) when we're in female-only spaces where there are no males (except maybe young children).

So yeah, we do a LOT more chatting and socializing in changing rooms and bathrooms than most males realize. In some cases, we use those spaces to escape from males that are hounding us or won't take the hint and leave us alone. We help each other with our clothing - we help zip up, we tuck in each other's tags, we give each other a visual once-over to make sure everything is in place. And sometimes we help with much more significant things, like unexpected periods or even miscarriages.

It's also one of the only spaces where we don't have to worry about being naked, where we don't feel vulnerable if we're nude. We don't generally just let it all hang out, but we're probably not as self conscious as you might think. Having another female see our bodies is an altogether different thing than having a male see our bodies, because there aren't any sexual overtones at all. Even when the other female is a flaming lesbian, there aren't sexual tones involved.
 
acbytesla said:
No I don't. If you dress like a woman, chances are you will blend in better in the Ladies room. How would a woman know if the person was a male in female's clothes or a female? I would argue they don't.
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Eddie Izzard does not look like a female, even when they're wearing a pink mini skirt. I mean, you can argue that you can no longer tell Izzard is male... but I would think you have something wrong with your brain if you seemed to mean it literally.
 
acbytesla said:
LMAO. You would think like I did. That just can't be a guy.
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i believe you. i don’t have no problem with the trans one way or another. it’s just when i see passability as a topic i see a certain segment of the population more comfortable with trans they’d want to have sex with, but at the same time incredibly conflicted at being attracted to a man. again that is fine by me. both amusing and fine.
 
acbytesla said:
A friend of mine was the beverage manager and head bartender at the Swedish Club in Seattle. And he would hire me to tend bar on occasions. Weddings mostly. But for other events too. Every year they hosted a beauty contest of sorts for transsexuals and transvestites. It was a shock to my middle class upbringing. But what was more shocking how outside of a few that were obvious men, most absolutely looked like women. That a straight heterosexual man like me would be all over. So no, I don't believe women have some sixth sense and just know the she was a he.
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I will challenge your experience here, and suggest that what you're missing is context.

In isolation, with good lighting, a lot of prep-work, undergarment scaffolding, very heavy makeup, and in the presences of similarly size males... a skilled transvestite might pass. But put one of those very convincing crossdressers in the presence of a few females, and it won't generally hold.

When you're looking at a handful of highly costumed males in the presence of other males, the size difference is masked. Put them in the presence of females, and the shoulders, hands, and feet almost always stand out. It's good mimicry, sure, but only effective in isolation.

Think about this - almost all of the transgender identified male athletes that you ever see pictures of are either alone or taken from an angle that de-emphasizes the size difference. Same with actors, or pretty much any other photo you've ever been shown. Careful lighting, heavy make-up, and no females nearby to compare too. Very, very, very few are small-statured and delicate enough to pass when they're among females.

By the same token, transgender identified females (transmen) don't pass as well when they're among males. The beards and lower voices go a really long way toward being convincing at a glance, as does the larger standard deviation in height among males - they're more likely to pass as a short male at a cursory look. But put them among actual males, and the difference in build, hands, and feet can very quickly become obvious.

Not always - some will pass effectively on both sides of this. But in reality, the vast majority do NOT pass as the opposite sex, especially when actually compared to the opposite sex.
 
I'm surprised no one's brought up The Crying Game by now.

It seems at the time that there were a lot of people who were totally shocked by that infamous scene that twisted the whole movie around.

Personally, I enjoyed the movie very much and was also shocked.


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Emily's Cat said:
I will challenge your experience here, and suggest that what you're missing is context.

In isolation, with good lighting, a lot of prep-work, undergarment scaffolding, very heavy makeup, and in the presences of similarly size males... a skilled transvestite might pass. But put one of those very convincing crossdressers in the presence of a few females, and it won't generally hold.

When you're looking at a handful of highly costumed males in the presence of other males, the size difference is masked. Put them in the presence of females, and the shoulders, hands, and feet almost always stand out. It's good mimicry, sure, but only effective in isolation.

Think about this - almost all of the transgender identified male athletes that you ever see pictures of are either alone or taken from an angle that de-emphasizes the size difference. Same with actors, or pretty much any other photo you've ever been shown. Careful lighting, heavy make-up, and no females nearby to compare too. Very, very, very few are small-statured and delicate enough to pass when they're among females.

By the same token, transgender identified females (transmen) don't pass as well when they're among males. The beards and lower voices go a really long way toward being convincing at a glance, as does the larger standard deviation in height among males - they're more likely to pass as a short male at a cursory look. But put them among actual males, and the difference in build, hands, and feet can very quickly become obvious.

Not always - some will pass effectively on both sides of this. But in reality, the vast majority do NOT pass as the opposite sex, especially when actually compared to the opposite sex.
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Yeah, you would think so. But I have 4 brothers and 3 sisters and I am by far the smallest. 5'7. Two I of my sisters are more than 6 feet tall. I dated for a few months a girl who also towered over me. By your reasoning, all three would be males. And I would be a female. And you would be wrong.
 
AmyStrange said:
I'm surprised no one's brought up The Crying Game by now.

It seems at the time that there were a lot of people who were totally shocked by that infamous scene that twisted the whole movie around.

Personally, I enjoyed the movie very much and was also shocked.
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Me too.

And that is what I think freaks most men out about Trans. They're afraid that the girl that they are sporting a chubby over is actually a guy.

And what does that say about them?
 
acbytesla said:
Me too.

And that is what I think freaks most men out about Trans. They're afraid that the girl that they are sporting a chubby over is actually a guy.

And what does that say about them?
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Yup, that and being thought gay by their buddies.


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