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Merged Now What?

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catsmate said:
I saw that. Not unexpected.
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I must confess I thought no further than the type of deal we'd get as members of EFTA. Whether we could get in is, of course, another matter entirely.

Nope. Though I'd say she could do a better job than Davis.
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Davis may have a better idea than Aspaker of what the UK's plans are, but it's not a given. He's probably still negotiating who gets the corner office.
 
wobs said:
Apologies if this has been posted, but the IFS has a study which points out that:
The IFS report argued that the special advantage of being an EU member was that its single market reduced or eliminated barriers to trading in services, such as the need for licences or other regulations.

...
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http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-37023488

Full report here:
http://www.ifs.org.uk/publications/8411
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So much for cutting red tape, then.

This will mostly be a problem for small and medium sized businesses which only operate within the EU and haven't had to worry about this sort of thing before.
 
CapelDodger said:
So much for cutting red tape, then.

This will mostly be a problem for small and medium sized businesses which only operate within the EU and haven't had to worry about this sort of thing before.
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Yes it is - the vast majority of my business' turnover comes from the EU and as a service industry, leaving the EEA would be a disaster. We would need to demonstrate that no other EU employee could fill the post that our consultants would be filling. It's a significant barrier to entry and instead of competing against other EU countries, we could be competing against India on price.
 
Ambrosia said:
Highly unlikely.

Yes the pound has fallen lots, yes there will be turmoil in the financial markets for a while, but it'll take a minimum of 2 years before Brexit actually happens and the markets will stabilise and recover somewhat in the nearish future.

Not lots has actually changed in the fundamentals of the economy. I don't agree that GDP will fall a lot and unemployment will rise massively.

Most UK EU Trade agreements post Brexit don't really need to change all that much, we need to trade with the EU and the EU needs to trade with us.
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I agree, I voted for Brexit (same reasons Dennis Skinner voted for it).
We need trade with the EU and it needs to trade with us, but we don't need to be in it for that to happen.
 
Airfix said:
I agree, I voted for Brexit (same reasons Dennis Skinner voted for it).
We need trade with the EU and it needs to trade with us, but we don't need to be in it for that to happen.
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Except they are going to give you an extremely worse trade deal
 
cullennz said:
Except they are going to give you an extremely worse trade deal
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Exactly. No one said that we couldn't trade with the EU from the outside, and it's disingenuous to claim or imply otherwise. It's just that we could do so on far better terms from within.
 
Airfix said:
I agree, I voted for Brexit (same reasons Dennis Skinner voted for it).
We need trade with the EU and it needs to trade with us, but we don't need to be in it for that to happen.
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I own a company that's an IT service provider. We have very specialised skills with a particular set of tools and the vast majority of our work is done in the EU. We tend to provide people on site and/or working remotely for periods of time to supplement the skills of our clients.

Many EU countries have laws which state that if you're going to get a non-EU person to fill a role you have to demonstrate that no EU person could fill that role. The process of doing that is long and complicated and whilst the time and expense may be worth it if you're getting an entire project team for two or three years, it simply isn't worthwhile for couple of people for a couple of months.

As a result, my clients will pay that little bit more and/or get slightly less capable people from my European competition or, if their need is for more people for longer, I will have to compete against the Indian service providers. Sure, they may be a little less experienced but €500 a day instead of €1500 a day makes one heck of a case.

Shippers of widgets may be able to withstand the 3%-5% tariffs on all their goods and perhaps their new post-Brexit ability to screw over their staff and pollute a bit more will shave a few pennies off their cost base to compensate but for businesses like mine a non-EEA post-Brexit future is bleak.

For the record the UK has an annual trade surplus of £26bn with the EU for services so the EU has little or no incentive to make life easy for us service exporters.

edited to add....

In this case the Beast of Bolsover is wrong - we need to be in the EU (or at least the EEA which, given the rules amounts to the same thing) to trade. Perhaps he is showing his age and thinking in terms of the trade in manufactured goods where the real money is in services - something he likely has a blind spot for.
 
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Airfix said:
and it needs to trade with us,
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I see this a lot. Is it actually true? Are there things that the UK provides that the EU couldn't source from elsewhere? Quite possibly from an EU source?

I mean I know there are certain brands etc that are manufactured in the UK but there are always alternatives if the price is right. I know the opposite isn't true in that the UK is not self-sufficient in a whole manner of things.

They would, of course, WANT to trade with us. But only on terms that they find advantageous. And again, I keep repeating, and nobody has yet answered, that there are a few EU countries who probably couldn't care less about trade with the UK (and a few who will think it is vital) why would they agree to a trade deal in which they get nothing of benefit?
 
The Don said:
Many EU countries have laws which state that if you're going to get a non-EU person to fill a role you have to demonstrate that no EU person could fill that role.
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It should be pointed out that this is a very bad rule and a protectionist quasi-nationalist one not a free trade one. Far better to let firms hire who they wish.
 
Francesca R said:
It should be pointed out that this is a very bad rule and a protectionist quasi-nationalist one not a free trade one. Far better to let firms hire who they wish.
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Funnily enough, I don't recall anyone pointing this out during the recent Euro election. In fact I recall a lot of the election was spent with people discussing rules to prohibit free movement of labour.

While I don't dispute what you say I think there is a lot of work to be done to convince the majority of grazed knuckle leave voters.
 
Francesca R said:
It should be pointed out that this is a very bad rule and a protectionist quasi-nationalist one not a free trade one. Far better to let firms hire who they wish.
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Sure. Then why brexit people seem to have it against foreigner then ? They should welcome them with open arms by that standard ! No protectionist rules and let firm hire who they wish.


Or maybe this is not a realistic proposition by any standard.
 
cullennz said:
Except they are going to give you an extremely worse trade deal
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That depends on your point of view.
Members of the EU are bound by rule TFEU207 and are prohibited from having their own bilateral free trade agreements with countries that aren't members of the EU, I can't post links yet but the europa dot EU website has that rule on it.

An independent country which has a free trade agreement with the EU can negotiate any number of free trade agreements with other countries.

We'll be exempt from a lot of other EU rules. The rules on state aid and monopolies covered in TFEU 101-107 will no longer apply either.

I agree, free trade with the continent is a good thing, but membership of that particular club is not the only way to have that. And considering we've been paying almost £8.5bn a year (post rebate and other returned monies), I think we can do better.

I have no regrets about the way I voted.

I know some would have a problem with what I'm about to say, but I would have no problem with the government rejoining EFTA and signing the EEA agreement (which has free movement in it). We would still be exempt from a large amount of EU laws.
 
Aepervius said:
Sure. Then why brexit people seem to have it against foreigner then ? They should welcome them with open arms by that standard ! No protectionist rules and let firm hire who they wish.


Or maybe this is not a realistic proposition by any standard.
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Take a look at TFEU 207 and the EU's common external tariff policy.
Members have to exercise protectionism. I object to protectionism.
 
Airfix said:
That depends on your point of view.
Members of the EU are bound by rule TFEU207 and are prohibited from having their own bilateral free trade agreements with countries that aren't members of the EU, I can't post links yet but the europa dot EU website has that rule on it.

An independent country which has a free trade agreement with the EU can negotiate any number of free trade agreements with other countries.

We'll be exempt from a lot of other EU rules. The rules on state aid and monopolies covered in TFEU 101-107 will no longer apply either.

I agree, free trade with the continent is a good thing, but membership of that particular club is not the only way to have that. And considering we've been paying almost £8.5bn a year (post rebate and other returned monies), I think we can do better.

I have no regrets about the way I voted.

I know some would have a problem with what I'm about to say, but I would have no problem with the government rejoining EFTA and signing the EEA agreement (which has free movement in it). We would still be exempt from a large amount of EU laws.
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Of course rejoining EFTA would cost about £8.5bn a year............
 
Francesca R said:
It should be pointed out that this is a very bad rule and a protectionist quasi-nationalist one not a free trade one. Far better to let firms hire who they wish.
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Oh, absolutely, but thems the rules I'll have to deal with.

edited to add

..because of course Brexit was largely about controlling the movement of people, placing another constraint on hard-working business owners :mad:
 
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Francesca R said:
Why not? If you don't think it is then your complaint with Brexit would be merely that it is a bit more protectionist-nationalist than perhaps you'd like to be.
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Because no country without a treaty and reciprocity allows anybody to come in and out at will get a work. That's why the EU zone works, but UK outside would not work without *reciprocity*.

In other word you are out of EU but have exactely the same situation as before.
 
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Airfix said:
That depends on your point of view.
Members of the EU are bound by rule TFEU207 and are prohibited from having their own bilateral free trade agreements with countries that aren't members of the EU, I can't post links yet but the europa dot EU website has that rule on it.

An independent country which has a free trade agreement with the EU can negotiate any number of free trade agreements with other countries.
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This has nothing to do with Cullennz point oh and you conveniently forget that leaving the EU also means we LOSE all the FTAs already negotiated and bargaining power for future ones.

We'll be exempt from a lot of other EU rules. The rules on state aid and monopolies covered in TFEU 101-107 will no longer apply either.
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Yay! We can be independent and anti-competitive!

I agree, free trade with the continent is a good thing, but membership of that particular club is not the only way to have that. And considering we've been paying almost £8.5bn a year (post rebate and other returned monies), I think we can do better.

I have no regrets about the way I voted.

I know some would have a problem with what I'm about to say, but I would have no problem with the government rejoining EFTA and signing the EEA agreement (which has free movement in it). We would still be exempt from a large amount of EU laws.
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These statements seem at odds. If you want to join the EEA then you have to start paying your dues again so the £8.5bn a year isn't saved. And you'll then have to follow swathes of EU law without having much if any influence over it.
 
Airfix said:
I know some would have a problem with what I'm about to say, but I would have no problem with the government rejoining EFTA and signing the EEA agreement (which has free movement in it). We would still be exempt from a large amount of EU laws.
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I think you are badly misinformed. Of course the putative terms of membership of the EEA are unknown but as I understand it, there would be very limited and specific exemptions from EU legislation.
 
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