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Merged Now What?

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I certainly hope not.
Obviously not yet as most remain campaigners also stayed "dirty" on immigration (said it was too high).

Immigration alone can not offset greying of course. Immigrants get old too. To stop the dependency ratio from rising just using immigration would require huge and ever increasing immigrant flows. (I think immigration has many other advantages though)

No I agree on both points apart from the SNP who are clear about the need for immigration in Scotland no one else will be. And I also agree that immigration is only part of the approach we need to take but like being honest about immigration being honest about some of the options to deal with the costs of the greying population is probably a step too far for most politicians.
 
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Immigrants get old too. To stop the dependency ratio from rising just using immigration would require huge and ever increasing immigrant flows. (I think immigration has many other advantages though)

Immigrants get old but only a proportion of them stick around in the UK long enough for that to be an impact. Not sure what that number is.

Of course free movement of people makes it easier for immigrants to come and go and we're possibly going to lose that.
 
The Leave voters were either intentionally deceived, or they were bamboozled by irresponsible or ignorant politicians.

Not all of them.

I was a Leave voter from the day they announced the referendum. I listened to the arguments that Remain presented and they weren't enough to make me change my mind. I didn't actually pay much attention to what the Leave campaign was doing.

If it makes you feel better you can keep calling Leave voters brainwashed idiots, but it's not an accurate generalisation.
 
I would have probably voted Leave anyway, but what really decided it for me were the pathetic 'reforms' that were offered to Cameron to try and make us remain.

Cameron spent months travelling all over Europe and warned other EU leaders that we might leave if they didn't offer us some meaningful concessions on the free movement of people. But the best they could offer after the predictable deadline overruns and final all-night discussions were laughable.

The sight of Cameron standing at his lectern and announcing that, on the back of the "concessions" he'd negotiated, he was now recommending us to remain "in a reformed EU" were truly cringe-worthy. It showed how contemptuous the EU was of the opinions of the people living in one of its member countries.
 
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I would have probably voted Leave anyway, but what really decided it for me were the pathetic 'reforms' that were offered to Cameron to try and make us remain.

Cameron spent months travelling all over Europe and warned other EU leaders that we might leave if they didn't offer us some meaningful concessions on the free movement of people. But the best they could offer after the predictable deadline overruns and final all-night discussions were laughable.
I think the continental EU states were right about that. If the UK doesn't want free movement it doesn't want free trade. Fine.
The sight of Cameron standing at his lectern and announcing that, on the back of the "concessions" he'd negotiated, he was now recommending us to remain "in a reformed EU" were truly cringe-worthy. It showed how contemptuous the EU was of the opinions of the people living in one of its member countries.
It merely shows how desperate Cameron was to secure a Remain vote. And now it is clear why he wanted the UK to remain in the EU. This is a mess, and Cameron has been forced to abandon his position as Head of Government.

The EU countries are perfectly entitled to be contemptuous of the opinions of BoJo and Farage. I sympathise, because I share their contempt.
 
Okay so how is the EU stuffing up the free migration thing so badly? The US has free migration without any of this butthurtedness.

Seems like the EU needs to be either a lot more unified or a lot less. Either way, figure it out already, Euros.
 
Okay so how is the EU stuffing up the free migration thing so badly? The US has free migration without any of this butthurtedness.

Seems like the EU needs to be either a lot more unified or a lot less. Either way, figure it out already, Euros.

Don't underestimate the parochial nature of large parts of the UK. I grew up in a town where "incomers" were resented and treated badly even if they came from 15 miles down the road, not halfway across Europe.

People would likely to have fought to have had Maccems deported never mind Romanians (though in the case of Maccems, they might have had a case ;))
 
Okay so how is the EU stuffing up the free migration thing so badly? The US has free migration without any of this butthurtedness.

Seems like the EU needs to be either a lot more unified or a lot less. Either way, figure it out already, Euros.

In my opinion, because valid strategic geopolitical considerations forced what in other terms was a excessively rapid introduction of the euro, and a mistaken attachment to a single velocity EU was maintained when adding so many new nation-states.

The euro was rushed into implementation at the insistence of EU leaders, especially Mitterand, to compensate for accepting a newly reunified Germany, which with the Deutschmark was thought to be poised to dominate all other states. However, in so doing, the euro was not restricted to only those economies most in sync: Benelux, Germany, France and, maybe, Italy (also some smaller ones, such as Austria, and of course had they wanted, the UK and Denmark). Other countries should have had to wait until growth and infrastructure, especially human and intellectual capital, brought their economies more in line, using a continuation of the European Exchange Rate Mechanism. Certainly the full free movement of labor should have been restricted to this initial, smaller and more compatible, euro zone.

This is what I would advocate for the EU today if it were not for the fact that leaving the euro is so messy as to be impracticable for all but the smallest states, and with massive currency backing from other states. Sovereign debt markets would go nuts, I reckon.

Good to take in Eastern Europe to consolidate freedom there, and in light of Russia today, a very wise move that certainly prevented a new takeover by hook or by crook. Good to include in the EU, as it had already been, Southern Europe. But an EU of 28 nation states, some just emerging from behind the Iron Curtain, simply is too disparate in nature at this juncture to have introduced so many open door policies, or to share a single currency among so many. A step-by-step approach was working better, but events overwhelmed when the Warsaw Pact dissolved.

The EU, therefore, throughout these last decades, can be seen to evolve very much in response to its threatening neighbor to the East; the EU is a strategic concept, not just an economic one. This is why Brexit, even if it nominally does not affect NATO, is psychologically such a bad, bad move, and may encourage copy cats and have a domino effect. If Trump wins, Putin will soon have all his ducks in a row, and more horror show fare will be in store.
 
I would have probably voted Leave anyway, but what really decided it for me were the pathetic 'reforms' that were offered to Cameron to try and make us remain.

Cameron spent months travelling all over Europe and warned other EU leaders that we might leave if they didn't offer us some meaningful concessions on the free movement of people. But the best they could offer after the predictable deadline overruns and final all-night discussions were laughable.

The sight of Cameron standing at his lectern and announcing that, on the back of the "concessions" he'd negotiated, he was now recommending us to remain "in a reformed EU" were truly cringe-worthy. It showed how contemptuous the EU was of the opinions of the people living in one of its member countries.

Complaining that your special treatment isn't special enough and it shows contempt for you. Sounds like Leavers need an ego check.
 
Complaining that your special treatment isn't special enough and it shows contempt for you. Sounds like Leavers need an ego check.

I don't see how ego comes into it. We weren't happy with the terms offered and so now we're leaving. The EU obviously considered that this might happen one day or Article 50 wouldn't exist.

Would you say that a person quitting a job they're not happy with needs an ego check?
 
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I don't see how ego comes into it. We weren't happy with the terms offered and so now we're leaving. The EU obviously considered that this might happen one day or Article 50 wouldn't exist.

Would you say that a person quitting a job they're not happy with needs an ego check?
Then why avoid signing it so badly?
 
I don't see how ego comes into it. We weren't happy with the terms offered and so now we're leaving. The EU obviously considered that this might happen one day or Article 50 wouldn't exist.

Would you say that a person quitting a job they're not happy with needs an ego check?
They would if they reacted by saying the equivalent of:
The sight of Cameron standing at his lectern and announcing that, on the back of the "concessions" he'd negotiated, he was now recommending us to remain "in a reformed EU" were truly cringe-worthy. It showed how contemptuous the EU was of the opinions of the people living in one of its member countries.​
 
I don't see how ego comes into it. We weren't happy with the terms offered and so now we're leaving. The EU obviously considered that this might happen one day or Article 50 wouldn't exist.

Would you say that a person quitting a job they're not happy with needs an ego check?

No but demanding special treatment, getting it, then demanding even more special treatment and getting even more concessions then saying you are being treated with contempt because they didn't agree to your every wish is not the same as leaving a job because you are not happy.

If you aren't happy in a club then leave sure but don't claim that you were treated with contempt when in fact you were treated better than everyone else in the same club.

Leaving a club because you can't get your own way on everything is petulant and childish.
 
I don't see how ego comes into it. We weren't happy with the terms offered and so now we're leaving. The EU obviously considered that this might happen one day or Article 50 wouldn't exist

I'm not sure how true that statement is.

For sure there are some people out there who understood the terms under which we were operating within the EU (and beyond) and who made an informed and reasoned decision to leave.

Then again there a lot of people I interact with on a daily basis who clearly had little or no idea as to the relationship between the UK and Europe and who rely instead on soundbites from the media to describe it for them.

Then again there were some people who just wanted to give "the establishment" a bloody nose.

I think it would be fair to say that most people who voted Leave weren't happy with the terms they were told they were being offered but that's a long way from being unhappy with the terms.

Would you say that a person quitting a job they're not happy with needs an ego check?

It depends.

If, in order to keep you happy, your employer already treated you much better than your peers by paying you more, giving you a dedicated parking space and the keys to the executive washroom and you quit your job because they wouldn't allow you to take alternate Mondays and Fridays as paid holiday (in addition to your usual entitlement) - when you weren't even that good at your job and your colleagues were already chuntering about how you weren't really a team player and how you never helped out in a crisis - then yes, you might need an ego check.

That impression would be reinforced if you left saying "Well I'm leaving and I'm going to get a much better job" - when people know that the job market is very competitive, a bit sticky and quite frankly the terms and conditions you seem to be expecting are far beyond what anyone out there is offering.


edited to add.....

 
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Don't underestimate the parochial nature of large parts of the UK. I grew up in a town where "incomers" were resented and treated badly even if they came from 15 miles down the road, not halfway across Europe.

People would likely to have fought to have had Maccems deported never mind Romanians (though in the case of Maccems, they might have had a case ;))

Where I grew up we looked with suspicion on the half of the village on the other side of the railway.
We would never dare to go in the pubs over there and they never came in the pubs over our side.
 
... It showed how contemptuous the EU was of the opinions of the people living in one of its member countries.

I beg to differ on this point. Of course there are those who went all blustery, such as Junker, but in general I think that the EU obsession with allowing free movement is a good sign, showing aversion to anything that smacks of ethnocentrism or, heaven forbid, racism.

That does not mean a desire to see some restrictions in place is racist or poorly motivated, only that such a policy runs counter to the postwar consensus about what drove violence then, and could easily do so again. As well, the issue of how to handle other migrations, such as refugees and asylum seekers, runs into diverging understanding as to the lessons learned from the war. I, for one, applaud the fact that above all, Germany's reactions and statements for the last few tumultuous years have been sane and centered.

However, to call these differences 'contemptuous' is to fall into a demagogue's trap, in my view, as it colors/colours the issue with attribution error and disallows deeper analysis. Some things could have been handled better, perhaps differentiating more clearly between temporary safe haven for refugees, conditioned acceptance of economic or political immigration from outside the EU, and finally internal migrations. The Brexit debate, insofar as my limited exposure in the past allows, seems to have entirely glossed over these differences, and left many voters with the unfortunate mental image of Nigel's inflammatory side-of-the-bus picture.
 
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