Merged Now What?

[Craig B]

Asking the blue rinse brigade in the shires who they prefer can be seen as democracy, can it?

No it can't. The indescribable cowardice and negligence of the "victors" in the Brexit referendum has made democracy irrelevant in the context of the present crisis.

If one side of a card game throws in its hand, because the stakes are too high, the rules on how the game should be played cannot thereafter be applied in that particular game, though they still remain on the books, to be used if and when a resolute player arrives at the table.

 

[GlennB]

UK politics, 2016:

 

[Craig B]

UK politics, 2016:

[qimg]http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg274/sap-guy/fawlty.jpg[/qimg]

I couldn't have believed the Tories would come to this. It is a sign of disintegration. I remember 1956, the symbolic collapse of Empire. Is this crisis now the symbolic collapse of the Union?

 

[Belz...]

I ... would not be this open about it if I were you.

There is no way to explain why without it being easily misunderstood as an insult.

Isn't that a veiled insult, anyway? Why is it so difficult to address what people post?

Identity has direct life consequence, as it shapes your political view and how you want the future to be shaped.

I never said otherwise. I said that you can't reasonable identify as something you're not. I can identify as Japanese but it doesn't make it so. I don't have a Japanese ethnic or cultural background nor do I have a Japanese citizenship.

This isn't complicated.

 

[Craig B]

Isn't that a veiled insult, anyway? Why is it so difficult to address what people post?



I never said otherwise. I said that you can't reasonable identify as something you're not. I can identify as Japanese but it doesn't make it so. I don't have a Japanese ethnic or cultural background nor do I have a Japanese citizenship.

This isn't complicated.

But the situation here is different. An English person is English, a British citizen, and a resident of the European Union all at once, and may identify most strongly with a particular one of these levels of collective identity.

That the same British citizen is not equally entitled to identify as, for example, an Argentinian is neither here nor there in the issue under discussion.

 

[Amazer]

Isn't that a veiled insult, anyway? Why is it so difficult to address what people post?



I never said otherwise. I said that you can't reasonable identify as something you're not. I can identify as Japanese but it doesn't make it so. I don't have a Japanese ethnic or cultural background nor do I have a Japanese citizenship.

This isn't complicated.

Tgpln

I couldn't have believed the Tories would come to this. It is a sign of disintegration. I remember 1956, the symbolic collapse of Empire. Is this crisis now the symbolic collapse of the Union?

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk

 

[catsmate]

Indeed. It is not spiteful, or only so, that this should be the case, as other states and regions should not be encouraged to think EU Lite, or Out.

Exactly.

These do seem to be the options. Celerity and clarity are needed to avoid the second if going for the first. Worst case: dalliance with a Brexit state of flux, threatening but not acting on Art50, as I think after a while even more businesses would rethink the sanity of investing in the UK.

The longer the uncertainty, the worse the economic problems become as more companies say "sod this" and depart the UK.

There's another factor: EU stands to gain a lot from British loss. The financial sector will move to other EU countries - Paris, Frankfurt and Dublin are commonly mentioned candidates to take a piece of the pie. With that in mind, the EU has very rational economic reasons to deny the common market to the UK, if the UK won't offer substantial concessions in return. The loss of British market could be entirely compensated by the gain of British businesses.

Rarely has so much been sacrificed by so few to gain so little.

Don't forget Amsterdam. It'll be interesting to see how things go; certainly in Ireland the mood isn't very conciliatory towards the UK (given the effects on the Irish economy) and there are some interesting discussions with companies about moving.

 

[Amazer]

Well, at least now we know what to expect:

There must be no attempts to remain inside the EU, no attempts to rejoin it through the back door ... Brexit means Brexit

and

Article 50 should not be filed until the end of 2016

If I were in charge of any appropriate institution in the EU, I'd start planning a couple of big fairs designed especially to attract British businesses to move to my country before uncertainty sets in. That way I could benefit whatever the end result would be.

As a side note, I fully expect her to find an excuse not to invoke A50. There are plenty of good reasons, not being able to agree upon what negotiating position to take seems like a fairly good one too.

McHrozni

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk

 

[The Don]

There must be no attempts to remain inside the EU, no attempts to rejoin it through the back door ... Brexit means Brexit

Whatever "Brexit" means of course

Is it Brexit on Norway or Swiss terms ? (with all that implies about financial contributions, adherence to EU rules and movement of people)

Is it Brexit on Canada terms ? (with what that implies for the UK service industries, in particular the financial services industry)

Or are we out-out ?

and

Article 50 should not be filed until the end of 2016

Can the markets withstand that level of uncertainty for so long ?

 

[LondonJohn]

I couldn't have believed the Tories would come to this. It is a sign of disintegration. I remember 1956, the symbolic collapse of Empire. Is this crisis now the symbolic collapse of the Union?

No. It's not. Although I can see how those who wish that to be so might will themselves to come to this rationalisation.

 

[Hlafordlaes]

... I don't even know what you're asking, now. What did you mean, then, when you said you were European?

Back when I said I identified as European, I recall you asked me about what that meant. Because under normal circumstances a person who so identifies would take on citizenship, I explained why this is not the case in this instance. Save for a piece of paper, there is no fundamental difference.

Legal status: non-European.
Home: Europe.
In the way: Crowns, and all the acidic corrosion they signify for the foundations of democratic thought (monarchy contradicts equality and relies on the concept of hereditary merit; pardon while I wretch out/lose my stomach and both intestines).

 

[MikeG]

No. It's not. Although I can see how those who wish that to be so might will themselves to come to this rationalisation.

Immediately after a boil is lanced, there is a bit of puss to deal with. After a few days, there is no boil, and after a few weeks there is no sign that there ever was one. None of which applies to the Labour version of boil-lancing: decapitation.

 

[Belz...]

But the situation here is different. An English person is English, a British citizen, and a resident of the European Union all at once, and may identify most strongly with a particular one of these levels of collective identity.

Sure, but would a Canadian reasonably identify as European?

 

[The Don]

Immediately after a boil is lanced, there is a bit of puss to deal with. After a few days, there is no boil, and after a few weeks there is no sign that there ever was one.

Depends on whether there is residual infection. The relationship between the UK and the EU seems to be one of those cases where there's a period of remission followed by a flare-up, possibly worse each time.

Let's say there's a catharsis now and the Conservative Party rallies around the agreed Brexit position (whatever that turns out to be). Wind the clock forwards a few years when Brexit hasn't turned out as well as some may have wanted.

IMO there's a real risk that the old wounds will open up again with one part of the Conservative Party claiming that they would have negotiated a far better deal for the UK and that they would have had a closer/more distant relationship with the EU.

None of which applies to the Labour version of boil-lancing: decapitation.

Yes, however this turns our Labour will still be two or more different parties huddled under a single banner.

 

[GlennB]

Immediately after a boil is lanced, there is a bit of puss to deal with. After a few days, there is no boil, and after a few weeks there is no sign that there ever was one. None of which applies to the Labour version of boil-lancing: decapitation.

If the boil was on your cat, then yes. It might be quite cross ...

 

[Aepervius]

Isn't that a veiled insult, anyway? Why is it so difficult to address what people post?



I never said otherwise. I said that you can't reasonable identify as something you're not. I can identify as Japanese but it doesn't make it so. I don't have a Japanese ethnic or cultural background nor do I have a Japanese citizenship.

This isn't complicated.

But this is not something reflecting our case, as French/european/earthling/Your family are stuff I belong to. I am not sure why you find that hard to udnerstand, or why you take example "out there" which reflect none of the identity we listed.

Are you from UK ? Then you possibly are from either england, wales, northern Ireland, scottland...

Are you from US ? Then you may be californian, but also American.

etc....

 

[Lothian]

Immediately after a boil is lanced, there is a bit of puss to deal with. After a few days, there is no boil, and after a few weeks there is no sign that there ever was one.

Let us hope the same is true for the exit vote. The sooner everyone forgets we ere going to leave Europe the better.

 

[Craig B]

Sure, but would a Canadian reasonably identify as European?

Canada is part of N America, not an offshore Island of Europe.

 

[Belz...]

Canada is part of N America, not an offshore Island of Europe.

That was precisely my point.

 

[Craig B]

That was precisely my point.

Then you can't legitimately claim to be a European; but residents of offshore European islands can.