Merged Now What?

[The Don]

If he does do it, the country will collapse in disorder. The fascists will run amok.

They may do that anyway. If Brexit goes ahead but we end up leaving on terms which requires free movement of people then the "facists" will think they have been betrayed and may run amok.

Then again if they get what they want from Brexit then they may feel emboldened and take to the streets to take more of their country back from the brown people

 

[Lothian]

Do you understand just how ridiculous this sounds?

Remain lost. End of *********** story. For better or worse, we're out.

Do you understand just how ridiculous this sounds? We are not out, we are still members of the EU with all the advantage and disadvantages.

There is nothing you can do about it, and there is nothing anyone should do about it. Do you not understand democracy?

I think this says far more about your beliefs and wishes than it does about democracy. Every 5 years (more often counting EU and local elections) the Uk public change their mind on the political landscape they want. I see no reason why, within the law, people should not press and campaign for the future they want. It may be that at some point in the future these who have the legal power to decide on our membership of the EU take the decision that they would like to remain.

Do you not understand the constitutional crisis there would be if Brexit didn't happen?

None what so ever. Feel free to explain where in the UK constitution there is a requirement to leave the EU.

Frankly, this is spoilt-child territory: I didn't get my way so I'm going to scream and scream and stamp my foot.

Frankly, this is spoilt-child territory: If you don't get your way you are going to scream and scream and stamp your foot.

 

[catsmate]

They may do that anyway. If Brexit goes ahead but we end up leaving on terms which requires free movement of people then the "facists" will think they have been betrayed and may run amok.

Then again if they get what they want from Brexit then they may feel emboldened and take to the streets to take more of their country back from the brown people

Jodi Taylor is looking prescient with the references in her St. Mary's books to the "Battersea Barricades" and "the night they threw the Fascists out of Cardiff".

 

[Ambrosia]

Short term damage could well be catastrophic, and it's effects long lasting. The UK could realistically lose a large portion of it's vaunted finance sector. This business won't be back easily, and it would conceivably take a decade or two to simply replace it.

Keep preaching Doom. Everyone and their dogs telling us that the sky is going to fall because of Brexit is getting tiresome.

The problem by any sane politician in the UK now is how to prevent Brexit without a massive backlash from the retards who vote for Nigel Farage and his lot.

Could you also quit calling vast numbers of this country retards. Also getting tiresome.

The least horrible way might be to put one of these hot air fans in power, see them fail spectacularly, and then pick up the pieces. It wouldn't be pretty, but there are no pretty scenarios left, only very ugly ones and even uglier ones. It's also a very hard thing to pull off.

More doom-mongering.

The best course of action is for the Tories to elect a new leader, and for that new leader to use the time between now and Sep 9th to draw up a sensible plan on how best for the country to proceed.

Frankly I am glad Farage has left the building, the less that idiot has to do with what happens next the better.

 

[catsmate]

The legal challenge to the implementation of A50, initiated by Mishcon de Reya, looks interesting.

 

[Craig B]

The least horrible way might be to put one of these hot air fans in power, see them fail spectacularly, and then pick up the pieces. It wouldn't be pretty ...

That expedient was resorted to by the Establishment in Germany in 1933. Sure enough, the result wasn't "pretty"; but there were plenty of "pieces" to pick up, I admit.

 

[Craig B]

Feel free to explain where in the UK constitution there is a requirement to leave the EU.

Feel free to explain why the government setting aside the result of a constitutional referendum, which it initiated itself, would not represent a constitutional crisis.

Particularly when it is agreed that the motive behind the vote of the majority, if not outright racism, was the feeling that government is "undemocratic" and doesn't listen to the common people.

 

[Darat]

Do you understand just how ridiculous this sounds?

Remain lost. End of *********** story. For better or worse, we're out. There is nothing you can do about it, and there is nothing anyone should do about it. Do you not understand democracy? Do you not understand the constitutional crisis there would be if Brexit didn't happen? Frankly, this is spoilt-child territory: I didn't get my way so I'm going to scream and scream and stamp my foot.

Whilst I agree that the decision has been made there would be no constitutional crisis since parliament didn't decide to make the result binding. What there would be is a political crisis.

 

[Lothian]

Feel free to explain why the government setting aside the result of a constitutional referendum, which it initiated itself, would not represent a constitutional crisis.

Particularly when it is agreed that the motive behind the vote of the majority, if not outright racism, was the feeling that government is "undemocratic" and doesn't listen to the common people.

(1)There is no constitution.
(2) The results is advisory not binding.
As Darat said it would be a political crisis not a constitutional one.

 

[Craig B]

(1)There is no constitution.
(2) The results is advisory not binding.
As Darat said it would be a political crisis not a constitutional one.

In this case it's an artificial distinction. It'll be political only insofar as it remains in the parliamentary domain. It may not. It will engage the courts, the EU parliament, and if the referendum result is set aside, it will engage the streets. The consideration in people's minds will be the constitutional question; a referendum has been held, precisely because the issue is deemed to be constitutional. A vote in a referendum is generally accepted by the government, on the basis, right or wrong, of the primacy of direct democracy. Now the governing institutions will ignore this at their peril.

They have not ignored previous referendum results. They must not ignore this one, or they will seem to have set aside the very principles upon which their own right to govern is founded.

 

[Lothian]

In this case it's an artificial distinction. It'll be political only insofar as it remains in the parliamentary domain. It may not. It will engage the courts, the EU parliament, and if the referendum result is set aside, it will engage the streets. The consideration in people's minds will be the constitutional question; a referendum has been held, precisely because the issue is deemed to be constitutional. A vote in a referendum is generally accepted by the government, on the basis, right or wrong, of the primacy of direct democracy. Now the governing institutions will ignore this at their peril.

They have not ignored previous referendum results. They must not ignore this one, or they will seem to have set aside the very principles upon which their own right to govern is founded.

Perhaps it is definitions, I done see a crisis unless something hasn't worked as intended or doesn't work at all. If Parliament in full accordance with the laws of the land decides not to empower the PM to leave the EU* that is not a constitutional crisis as there is no legal requirement for the referendum to be followed.

There will be complaints and unhappy people but it does not mean that the process does not work or that the law needs changing any more than promising to keep university tuition free and then voting against it in Parliament is not a constitutional crisis.


*presuming that Mishcon de Reya are correct.

 

[Craig B]

... any more than promising to keep university tuition free and then voting against it in Parliament is not a constitutional crisis.

If that's the level of importance you perceive this crisis to have attained, I can't do anything other than state that I disagree most profoundly.

 

[Aepervius]

That expedient was resorted to by the Establishment in Germany in 1933. Sure enough, the result wasn't "pretty"; but there were plenty of "pieces" to pick up, I admit.

I don't think any of us want another such episode with dozen of millions of missing pieces.

 

[Lothian]

If that's the level of importance you perceive this crisis to have attained, I can't do anything other than state that I disagree most profoundly.

I think you are missing my point. I am sure we do not disagree on whether or not there would be a 'crisis' simply whether or not it is a constitutional one.

wikipedia says "A constitutional crisis is a situation that a legal system's constitution or other basic principles of operation appear unable to resolve"

If the current law allows parliament to overrule the public then there is no legal supremacy problem to resolve. It would be a constitutional crisis if one part of the law said the referendum was binding and another said Parliament could overrule it.

 

[MikeG]

How in the world would there be a constitutional crisis? Clearly the decision is within the purview of the Royal Prerogative.

Setting aside the result of a referendum, by whichever part of government (or even the judiciary), would immediately undermine the legitimacy of those very bodies who owe their right to exist to democracy and the rule of law. If we can bin some bits of democracy and the rule of law, we can bin them all, and if ignoring the result of plebicites is justifiable, then so is ignoring the results of elections. That's just about the definition of a constitutional crisis.

 

[MikeG]

Whilst I agree that the decision has been made there would be no constitutional crisis since parliament didn't decide to make the result binding. What there would be is a political crisis.

As above. Parliament isn't the only body in the country which is part of the constitution, and a democratic organisation ignoring the outcome of a legal and democratic referendum would invalidate their own raison d'etre.

 

[MCel58]

I agree with Darat that this is a political crisis and therefore it will ultimately need a political solution. Actually there is a history of ignoring referendums in the EU namely in Greece, Ireland and at present that very discussion is going on in Switzerland based around free movement of people after the Swiss referendum to curtail this in 2014. Where these have been ignored it has not really caused the complete breakdown of the system as described above. So given we are in unchartered waters who knows what would happen. I think that we will Brexit but will not achieve most or in fact any of what people were promised and most people will not hit the streets.

 

[Darat]

As above. Parliament isn't the only body in the country which is part of the constitution, and a democratic organisation ignoring the outcome of a legal and democratic referendum would invalidate their own raison d'etre.

Don't see how that follows. If parliament had legislated to enact the outcome and then didn't I would agree that is a constitutional crisis but that isn't what has happened.

 

[Guybrush Threepwood]

I agree with Darat that this is a political crisis and therefore it will ultimately need a political solution. Actually there is a history of ignoring referendums in the EU namely in Greece, Ireland and at present that very discussion is going on in Switzerland based around free movement of people after the Swiss referendum to curtail this in 2014. Where these have been ignored it has not really caused the complete breakdown of the system as described above. So given we are in unchartered waters who knows what would happen. I think that we will Brexit but will not achieve most or in fact any of what people were promised and most people will not hit the streets.

Referendums have not been ignored in Ireland. Unlike the UK, they are actually part of the constitution, so can't be ignored.

It does sometimes take more than one go to get the answer right however

 

[MikeG]

I agree with Darat that this is a political crisis and therefore it will ultimately need a political solution. .....

There is indeed a political crisis, but it is nothing to do with setting aside the referendum result. Doing that would be both a political and a constitutional crisis. I dread to think of the consequences of ignoring the result. I expect riots would be the bare minimum.

Your political solution? Enact Brexit. Simple........end of crisis.