Merged Now What?

[gypsyjackson]

For information on the acts affected by the ECA see this article from the constitution unit. It's a QC's delight. https://constitution-unit.com/2016/...egislation-would-invoke-the-sewel-convention/

Thanks - other linked articles there quite interesting too.

I think that backs my position. UK could leave, Scotland could keep its current position and EU law without getting EU money for it. Not block UK leaving. The convention smokescreen would be blown away, especially as talk is about the part not enacted, and in any event what could be more abnormal than a UK wide referendum. Only been 2 previously; resulted in UK wide legislation.

ETA: Just seen one of the comments - would also need the EU to continue making provision for Scotland within its regulations.

 

[quadraginta]

<snip>

- the Western isles get a huge hidden subsidy through gaelic language support.

<snip>

Fascinating. How does that work?

How much is "huge"?

 

[Lukraak_Sisser]

I think one of the things the leave camp underestimated is the general feeling in Europe that the UK always behaved like a bit of a spoiled child in the EU and now they want even more.
Noone forced the UK to join in the 70's, but they had to do so to actually get their economy going again. In doing so they recieved a large number of exceptions. Now I see an interview with Boris who claims that the UK is really going to keep all the benefits of being in the EU.

As for the immigration, all the nationalists out there all claim that without the EU they could 'close the borders' and all will be fine. At the moment immigration is dealt with by all countries and they have to support each other. But that comes at the cost that a British problem (lots of people want to go there) causes problems in France and Belgium (the camps). If the EU fractures I strongly suspect all nations are going to try to shift the problem to their neighbours and barring iron curtain like borders, it will be possible to do that. All the French, for instance, have to do is not allow the British police on their territory any more and then let their police look the other way for a month or so. Problem gone. Of course the English do not want this, but I suspect the current situation will then start costing money. And given that the immigration wave has nothing to do with the EU and everything with the crappy situation in the middle east and parts of Afriva, it's not like the immigrants will stop coming in.

I suspect the Brexit will end up with the UK still having to follow most of the EU's rules in order to keep economically afloat, and still having to pay for the privilege, but without the ability to actually influence the decisions made. Rather the opposite of what was intended.

 

[asydhouse]

I don't find half the population suddenly turning racist that believable

It only takes a small number of emboldened racists to make any high street a nasty minefield for anyone who looks a little different from the imaginary norm that meets with their approval.

And fascists and racists all over Europe, never mind just Britain, are heartened by this retrograde "decision" swung by a few ignorant and flippant ****wits.

It's embarrassing that Britain has gone from being an exemplar of unity in diversity to becoming the enabler of regression and bigotry.

 

[Noztradamus]

It only takes a small number of emboldened racists to make any high street a nasty minefield for anyone who looks a little different from the imaginary norm that meets with their approval.

And fascists and racists all over Europe, never mind just Britain, are heartened by this retrograde "decision" swung by a few ignorant and flippant ****wits.

It's embarrassing that Britain has gone from being an exemplar of unity in diversity to becoming the enabler of regression and bigotry.

OTOH the REMAIN crowd were all kiddiefiddlers.

 

[The Don]

OTOH the REMAIN crowd were all kiddiefiddlers.

Evidence ?

I was Remain and I'm not a kiddiefiddler. I suspect that only a tiny proportion of Remain (and likely exactly the same proportion of Leave supporters) are kiddlefiddlers. OTOH a significant proportion of Leave supporters have showed that they are at worst racist and/or xenophobic and at best willing to allow themselves to be swayed by the racist and/or xenophobic messages put out by the Leave campaign (is it pure coincidence that although the overwhelming proportion of EU Immigrants are white and nominally Christian, the Leave scare stories related to, and showed pictures of, brown, possibly Muslim people).

 

[The Don]

Boris is continuing to say that the UK will enjoy all the benefits of European Economic Area (EEA) membership without having to do anything that the UK finds inconvenient, like the free movement of people, financial contribution, adhering to EU regulations and so on...

This is merely repeating the same fantastic rubbish the Leave campaign were saying during the campaign. Apparently the same country which was (apparently) so ineffectual at negotiating that the EU ran roughshod over the UK for decades will suddenly turn into the best negotiating team ever

If the UK is to be part of the EEA, the UK will need to make substantial concessions IMO.

 

[Planigale]

Fascinating. How does that work?

How much is "huge"?

Hard to total a split between many organisations. Probably around £20 million per year. About 50,000 gaelic speakers. The gaelic language funding provides jobs for gaelic language speakers, which predominate in the Western Isles (and do not get us started on the road equivalent tariff the western isles get), the costs of providing gaelic language access and resources are put on places like the Northern Isles with no historic connection with the gaelic language. So translation of documents subsidises jobs in the Western Isles. Obviously the funding is more widespread, but because of the location of gaelic language speakers the result is a hidden subsidy to the Western isles.

 

[Architect]

Mise ghaidhlig

 

[Klimax]

There is another petition running on the net. They want Nigel Farage to be involved in the Brexit negotiations in Brussels: https://www.change.org/p/boris-john...volved-in-the-brexit-negotiations-in-brussels

Voting for the Brexit was probably not the best move the UK could do but appointing Farage as negotiator for discussing the terms of the Brexit would by far be worse...

Conspiracy theory: Petition was started by bloody foreigners to make it far easier for EU...

 

[Darat]

No it's nothing to do with foreign policy. It seems to be to do with the legal arrangements embedded in the devolved Parliaments. They are set up to adhere to EU law and leaving the EU would mean that they would have to change that but Westminster can't change it without the consent of the Scottish Parliament.

It seems to be a legal technicality rather than any devolved power but its certainly an amusing potentiality.

The UK government could in principle at anytime disband the entire elected governments of Scotland, Wales and so on. Personally I don't think there is any chance of that happening but I could see if the will of the UK electorate is being "held hostage" (which is undoubtable the phrase that will be used in such a scenario) to one of those government a quick bit of legislation will remove any such roadblock.

 

[cullennz]

I don't want to get anyone stressed or anything, but I'm actually starting to think this Brexit thing might be a bit controversial

 

[McHrozni]

The UK government could in principle at anytime disband the entire elected governments of Scotland, Wales and so on. Personally I don't think there is any chance of that happening but I could see if the will of the UK electorate is being "held hostage" (which is undoubtable the phrase that will be used in such a scenario) to one of those government a quick bit of legislation will remove any such roadblock.

It could be a somewhat effective stalling tactic, in order to buy time to negotiate or organize whatever Scotland is up to next. A new independence referendum is certainly looking likely, and a Yes vote actually doesn't seem all that unlikely. I do wonder if UKIP calculated that factor in.

McHrozni

 

[MikeG]

........I'm finding it extremely illuminating that in every interview I've seen with Sturgeon........ If there is another referendum in Scotland, it will be focussed primarily on a "staying in" question, rather than a "leaving" question. In other words, Sturgeon is already seeking to frame any new Scottish referendum on explicitly and primarily gaining a mandate for Scotland to remain part of the EU, rather than explicitly seeking a mandate for Scotland to leave the UK.

This is an important (and pretty clever) repositioning/reframing by Sturgeon. Firstly, it at least partially deflates any argument (from the UK Government/parliament and any other stakeholders) that Scotland is seeking to have another "stay in UK vs leave the UK" referendum so soon after the first one; and secondly, if the result of such a referendum is a strong mandate for Scotland to remain within the EU, Sturgeon will use simple logic to infer that if a) the Scottish people want to remain within the EU, and b) the UK is in the process of leaving the EU, then the only way to implement the referendum outcome would be for Scotland to leave the UK.

In this way, Sturgeon and the SNP could almost get the Scottish independence they desire without ever having to ask that explicit question in any future referendum.........

Whilst I agree with your analysis, isn't it the case that the Electoral Commission would get to decide the wording of the referendum question? I doubt they would play along with this game.

 

[Francesca R]

That kind of statement simply exposes your ignorance and/or prejudice.

Yes it does give such an impression. Apologies and I'll take it back.

However in my view he made very big mistakes not in the interest of his party's objectives, primarily the "walk away from the debt" threat and the insistence that Scotland could help itself to a sterling currency union. I think it was within his grasp to win the '14 IndyRef and his blunders were a significant part of losing it. The smartest thing he did was hand over to Sturgeon.

Being "dumb" the way I (inappropriately) used the word does not mean a politician had no influence. Cameron would be called excessively dumb by the same token for giving the UK a Brexit vote that he did not want. It was a mistake on his part; whether attributed to stupidity or not it was a colossal error the out-turn of which makes Cameron look IMO like a terribly bad PM in the aftermath.

Many folks would call Nigel Farage dumb and I am usually tempted to join them. But arguably it is because of Farage that the UK has just voted to leave, and this would not have happened without his machinations.

I detect how much you would like to ping me as a UKIP supporter or a Donald Trump supporter; the only thing that is is mildly amusing but not very

 

[MikeG]

.........And fascists and racists all over Europe, never mind just Britain, are heartened by this retrograde "decision" swung by a few ignorant and flippant ****wits.

It's embarrassing that Britain has gone from being an exemplar of unity in diversity to becoming the enabler of regression and bigotry.

You can tell yourself this as often as you like, but one day you should read the actual facts, and one day you should realise that it is extremely unlikely that 52% of the British public are racist, ignorant, flippant, ****wits. It it is beyond ridiculous to cast anyone who voted Leave as an enabler of bigotry and regression. In fact, if you want to find exemplars of stupid generalisations about 'people-not-like-me', go look in the mirror.

 

[Ape of Good Hope]

It only takes a small number of emboldened racists to make any high street a nasty minefield for anyone who looks a little different from the imaginary norm that meets with their approval.

And fascists and racists all over Europe, never mind just Britain, are heartened by this retrograde "decision" swung by a few ignorant and flippant ****wits.

It's embarrassing that Britain has gone from being an exemplar of unity in diversity to becoming the enabler of regression and bigotry.

Speaking of which, did anyone catch The Sun's "See EU later" front page with the big photo of Sunderland Brexiteers celebrating the referendum result?

Isn't that prominent Combat 18 activist Billy Charlton in the blue shirt...

I think it might be...

 

[The Don]

You can tell yourself this as often as you like, but one day you should read the actual facts, and one day you should realise that it is extremely unlikely that 52% of the British public are racist, ignorant, flippant, ****wits. It it is beyond ridiculous to cast anyone who voted Leave as an enabler of bigotry and regression. In fact, if you want to find exemplars of stupid generalisations about 'people-not-like-me', go look in the mirror.

You're right, it is unlikely that 52% of the British public are racist, ignorant, flippant, ****wits, not least because some on the Remain side could also be racist, ignorant, flippant, ****wits

BUT.......

A lot of the effective messaging in the Leave campaign did relate to immigration, immigrants were being blamed for the squeeze on public services and although the vast majority of EU immigrants are white European "Christians" , a lot of the pictures and scare stories relate to brown and/or Muslim people.

52% of the British public are almost certainly not racist, ignorant, flippant, ****wits but enough were susceptible to the kind of message above for it to be worthwhile banging on about. My 81 year old father is almost certainly not racist but he took the message at face value and is convinced that immigrants are the reason that local government services aren't as good as they once were - despite the fact that he is almost "the only immigrant in the village".

It was and is a powerful and persuasive message.

 

[kevsta]

Brexit + (Day) 1 State Goal.

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/d24b4dcc-3b9f-11e6-8716-a4a71e8140b0.html?siteedition=uk#axzz4ClOjq8xv

Anything is possible
So pro-Europeans should give up? No. So long as a British government does not trigger Article 50, Britain remains an EU member. The political forces unleashed by this referendum are unprecedented and unpredictable.

It is far from fanciful to imagine that the next two years or so will see the complete recasting of the nation’s politics, quite possibly with the creation of a new, centrist, pro-European party.

So those who want Britain to stay close to its own continent could think the unthinkable and work to make it thinkable.

 

[Francesca R]

Westminster can't just toss out the agreement between it and Scotland when it suits them. No matter how many people in rUK vote for it.

What agreement are you referring to? There is no agreement to authorise unlimited neverendums as far as I know. So BoJo saying "Yah, sorry, not really any appetite for IndyRef 2" is not breaking an agreement, is it?

I don't think he should do that. Constitutional arrangements allow him to.

I don't think the SNP should veto Brexit. Experts whom Michael Gove has had enough of don't seem to think that constitutional arrangements do actually allow her to, but we will see.

Either act would be a profound violation of self determination in my view, even if they are wrapped up as supposedly supporting it.