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Merged Now What?

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cullennz said:
I'm going to sound thick.
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Don't worry we're used to it by now;)


But it's a question I've been wondering for a fair while.

And I don't mean this in a patronising way.

Could Scotland actually run cash wise without London?
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Depends what you mean. Like pretty much every country it would run at a deficit and would be reliant on someone lending them money.

The media stories of 'scrounging subsidy junkies in Scotland' are generally fabrications based on a particular reading of the data when, in fact, all things considered the reality for some time was that Scotland contributed more to the Uk than they received back.

In 2016 I think that's probably no longer the case because the oil price has tanked.

My concern is that Scotland is possibly about to repeat the same mistake England just did in voting on one issue based on another. If people in Scotland want to be independent then great, lets do it. If people in Scotland vote for independence because they are upset about the EU decision and want to kick England that's just piling more stupidity on the heap.

One hope perhaps is that the UK will be so busy with the EU question that we might be able to have a discussion about independence here without so much Westminster interference and downright lies from the media and establishment in London.

I'd love to see some real honest fact based discussion for a change on what is a very important decision. Won't hold my breath though.
 
Understand the want for the UK to be diverted

Actual talks rather than propaganda
 
MikeG said:
Let me see if I've got this right. The Lib Dems are planning to stop Brexit some 2 years after it has occurred? And they think that claiming access to a time machine will somehow increase their electoral popularity?
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Its more likely than most scenarios that have the libs becoming relevant again!
 
Planigale said:
... if the Northern Isles continue to vote to be part of the UK and not part of independent Scotland should they be allowed to do so? Should they have the right to go back to Norway?
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The fate of the N Isles has nothing to do with the UK. At the time of the Treaty of Union, it was acknowledged by all parties, including the English government, that these Islands were Scottish territory, and it is the Scotland as defined by the Union that is in question here as regards Indyref. If in an independent Scotland, these Islands want to campaign to transfer their allegiance to Norway, or to the rump UK, that will be a matter for them and the rest of Scotland to attend to. But it has never been conceded by the Union that they are part of any jurisdiction other than Scotland, so the Unionists can **** off. It's far too late for them to start on that mischief now.

This business of partitioning countries that have the audacity to secede from the British Empire has of course a long and unpleasant history, which I hope came to an end some time ago.
 
MikeG said:
I know literally scores of Leave voters. Not a single one of them voted that way because of immigration or xenophobia. Having control of the governance of this country was the over-riding motivation for voting Leave, and your petty racism slur is as baseless as it is insulting.
Travis said:
Sorry but if they voted for Leave they are racists. I am very comfortable calling everyone that voted that way a racist. And racism should be punished.
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Lost in the crossfire of such comments is the fact that there is a real and measurable disaffection with political systems on both sides of the Atlantic. Depending on what factors those voters blame, racism is fully, partially or not in play.

Brexit, the phenomenon of Trump, and the rise of populism in many places in my view relates to a profound misunderstanding of the situation a fundamental shift has placed us in. Automation is as much a driver of the loss of jobs and hollowing out of many 'rust belt' areas in the US, UK and elsewhere as are international trade agreements. Certainly some case might be made against the vast low-cost dumping that allowing China to join the WTO has produced, undermining social protections and driving labor conditions to misery. But even without China, the writing is on the wall: global surplus labor is a real and growing issue, and cannot be fixed by retreating into the past or wishful thinking. Yet politicians everywhere are leaping on this source of discontent and using it to trash the entire system and offer snake oil solutions.

With people now faced with beggar thy neighbor policies on international and national levels, a race to the bottom for the middle class is in full swing. In those places where strange faces are available to take the blame, we have demagogues slinging the mud. IOW, I understand and can sympathize with Trump and Brexit voters. They are panicking, having been willfully misinformed by others, apart from being driven by their own biases.

It is not fair to call opposition to unrestrained immigration - in numbers that can destabilize local markets when occurring over short periods - racism. It is less than analytical to consider fears about large waves of a new type of immigrant, this time sporting an ideology that is a real and present threat to the very society receiving them, as merely racism. OTOH, there are also the deeply felt racist ideas of some of Trump's and Brexit's supporters.

Point being: if we dismiss the anger and frustration leading to mob-mentality voting as only racism, we miss too many chances to uncover the real issues of: (1) profound long-term changes in the economy requiring major policy changes, and (2) a new clash of civilizations with its own very real challenges, regardless of your position wrt the faith in question.
 
Hlafordlaes said:
Lost in the crossfire of such comments is the fact that there is a real and measurable disaffection with political systems on both sides of the Atlantic. Depending on what factors those voters blame, racism is fully, partially or not in play.

Brexit, the phenomenon of Trump, and the rise of populism in many places in my view relates to a profound misunderstanding of the situation a fundamental shift has placed us in. Automation is as much a driver of the loss of jobs and hollowing out of many 'rust belt' areas in the US, UK and elsewhere as are international trade agreements. Certainly some case might be made against the vast low-cost dumping that allowing China to join the WTO has produced, undermining social protections and driving labor conditions to misery. But even without China, the writing is on the wall: global surplus labor is a real and growing issue, and cannot be fixed by retreating into the past or wishful thinking. Yet politicians everywhere are leaping on this source of discontent and using it to trash the entire system and offer snake oil solutions.

With people now faced with beggar thy neighbor policies on international and national levels, a race to the bottom for the middle class is in full swing. In those places where strange faces are available to take the blame, we have demagogues slinging the mud. IOW, I understand and can sympathize with Trump and Brexit voters. They are panicking, having been willfully misinformed by others, apart from being driven by their own biases.

It is not fair to call opposition to unrestrained immigration - in numbers that can destabilize local markets when occurring over short periods - racism. It is less than analytical to consider fears about large waves of a new type of immigrant, this time sporting an ideology that is a real and present threat to the very society receiving them, as merely racism. OTOH, there are also the deeply felt racist ideas of some of Trump's and Brexit's supporters.

Point being: if we dismiss the anger and frustration leading to mob-mentality voting as only racism, we miss too many chances to uncover the real issues of: (1) profound long-term changes in the economy requiring major policy changes, and (2) a new clash of civilizations with its own very real challenges, regardless of your position wrt the faith in question.
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Sorry but no you don't get to rebrand racism and xenophobia as something else just because you can point at other factors. At the risk of a Godwin there were economic and social drivers for the Nazis too, but that doesn't make their ideas less racist and bigoted.

Of course there are other factors at play. Of course foreigners are being used as a target by politicians and people are being misled. But it has to be called out where we see it. We can't keep blaming poor Polish people for the problems in public services caused by the Tories. We can't keep equating refugees, asylum seekers, immigrants and Muslims as all the same thing. We can't keep encouraging the narrative that foreign people are coming here to take advantage of us and most of all we can't keep pretending that we are in a clash of civilizations when we aren't except for the clash between people who want this to become a clash of civilizations vs those of us who want to get along.
 
Planigale said:
Unusually Nicola slipped up here. SNP should have waited until post EU referendum to have the independence referendum.
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Announcement of the Scottish referendum was back in early 2013. Cameron had said around that time, that if a Tory government were returned at the next election they might enact legislation for a vote on EU membership, but it wasn't clear at that point they would have a majority.
 
Planigale said:
Unusually Nicola slipped up here. SNP should have waited until post EU referendum to have the independence referendum. As it is there was a once in a life time vote to remain in the UK, and a UK referendum on the future of the UK. The democratic principles are clear.
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They are in fact open to question. Here's some fightin' talk from Nicola, just posted on the BBC News website.
First Minister Nicola Sturgeon has said the UK that Scottish voters chose to remain with in 2014 no longer exists ...
Ms Sturgeon told Andrew Marr: "The UK that Scotland voted to remain in in 2014 does not exist any more ... "​
 
cullennz said:
I do find it hard to believe that the UK has 17.5 million radical racists.
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It doesn't. Not all Leave voters were doing so solely or primarily because of immigration.

It may have a few hundred thousand or even a few million "genuine" racists but it's clear from the tone of the Leave campaign that there are a lot of people in the UK concerned about immigration and that blaming the effects of austerity on immigration was a popular message (not least because it absolved the Conservative Party).

My 81 year old father never used to be racist (and may still not be) but his Leave vote was motivated in part by a concern that immigration is placing a huge strain on public services in his town and that immigrants are changing the town beyond recognition. This all in a town in the North East of England where the number of non-British born is probably well under 1% - including my father.

He's been convinced by the right wing press that he reads that there is a problem.
 
The Don said:
It doesn't. Not all Leave voters were doing so solely or primarily because of immigration.

It may have a few hundred thousand or even a few million "genuine" racists but it's clear from the tone of the Leave campaign that there are a lot of people in the UK concerned about immigration and that blaming the effects of austerity on immigration was a popular message (not least because it absolved the Conservative Party).

My 81 year old father never used to be racist (and may still not be) but his Leave vote was motivated in part by a concern that immigration is placing a huge strain on public services in his town and that immigrants are changing the town beyond recognition. This all in a town in the North East of England where the number of non-British born is probably well under 1% - including my father.

He's been convinced by the right wing press that he reads that there is a problem.
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Sounds more reasonable
 
Did I just hear a 'Leaver' politician accuse the EU of being willing to self-harm to protect a narrow view of how countries should co-operate? Self-awareness much?
 
Information Analyst said:
Milk is already undervalued in the shops.
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The local farmers are certain that, post-Brexit they will receive at least as generous subsidy as the currently do (funded from the "£350m a week") AND they will get much higher prices for their produce due to the lack of competition from EU imports.

Agriculture and fishing accounts for 1% of the UK workforce so if this is the case then the other 99% will be paying significantly higher prices.

IMO part of the reason why the farmers have such sway is a folk-memory of the second world war when food was scarce due to a lack of food imports. Ironic that Brexit may bring around similar issues (albeit on a much smaller scale).
 
How will milk get cheaper? In a lit of cases farmers are already losing money on milk production.

We pay 87p for 2 pints. That's cheaper than some bottled waters.

It's the Supermarkets and the 'middlemen' milk processing dairies that set the price.

With an EU exit and probably a tariff on milk imports in the future I would think there is more chance of a price rise.
 
Planigale said:
Although the rest of the EU (RoEU) are currently miffed, it is also in their power to do something about this. They could say as a democratic? body we have failed to be sensitive to the wishes of the people. They could accept this is a failing in the EU system. The EU could shift on migration and free movement enough to justify a new case being put to the people and a repeat referendum.

Do I think this will happen? No.

The EU needs to do some sole searching and ask why this happened, it is the fault of the EU for failing to be inspiring.

I do know that there is a tradition in the continental political system (by which I mean France), that it is the responsibility of the political elite to lead the people, and there has always been a view that UK elites politicians, media, academics, have consistently failed to promote the EU project.
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Sorry, but Britain was difficult for all 40 years it was member of EU )or predecessor) Brexit is no more indicative of any failure of EU then Greece idiocy.

And finally, first people would have to actually turn out to elections to European parliament before asserting "insensitivity" to their wishes., when they don't even bother to exercise their existing options. Start there before going on some wild goose chase for magical reforms. (more likely to do harm then current status)

Also it might be actually good idea to educate oneself how EU works. Damn too many misinformation and lies out there.
 
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