Merged Now What?

[Tolls]

Yes, No, and No.

Yes: more expensive strawberries. If you want British workers to harvest them then your have to pay high enough to attract the required workers - at least until robot technology can be developed to the point where it's cheaper and better than armies of low-skilled workers.

Show us the technology.
The Japanese have only just come up with an expensive robot, that's not all that reliable, and, as was pointed out earlier, is going to sit unused for half the year.

No: have you considered the CO2 emitted by all the jets flying fruit pickers back and forward between Poland and Luton, or wherever?

They tend to use the train, and two trips a year is not big on CO2 either way.
Or do you have this vision that they commute?

No: farmers will just grow different crops. That's what farmers have always done - they grow whatever crop they can on their land that maximizes the profits they can make - if there are smaller profits to be made from growing strawberries once low-paid eastern European labour becomes more difficult to obtain, then the farmers will switch to growing some other less labour intensive crops.

Diversity is important in farming because mono-cropping leaves you open to a collapse in whatever crop you have.

Any crop they move into is already well occupied by other farmers.

In essence you are happy to be paying more at the supermarket for your food.

 

[The Don]

Here's the Brexit perspective from a British owner of an international agribusiness

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-36835454

 

[Aepervius]

and, as was pointed out earlier, is going to sit unused for half the year.

Yeah, well if you know anything about farming, this is true for pretty much all type of farming machine.

For example the harvesting combine, the one I know of, which tie hay into square ballot and get grains, pretty much are unused for half a year (less even). Same with many machines really, even the ones where the tractor crank shaft is used : they are mostly seasonal. The only machine which is used year round are tractors.

TL;DR : that is not a good argument. The argument is : over the middle or long term, is more money saved by using the machine than human ? It does not matter if the machine is used only 1 day in the whole year.

 

[gypsyjackson]

Here's the Brexit perspective from a British owner of an international agribusiness

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-36835454

I read that the other day with interest. That used to be my area. G's used to have a bad reputation for paying bad wages and taking a larger cut than reasonable for a dorm bed, plus running a grocery shop at the dorm which gouged its captive market. Very nice to hear they're now paying living wage and the accommodation has improved.

 

[Tolls]

TL;DR : that is not a good argument. The argument is : over the middle or long term, is more money saved by using the machine than human ? It does not matter if the machine is used only 1 day in the whole year.

Things like combis get shared out around the local farms (it's one of the reasons you see them chugging along on the roads, that and scattered fields). That helps spread the costs.

The same doesn't work for soft fruits, where there are far fewer producers.

But yes, it's down to whether it is cheaper...and the main argument against is that the things don't actually exist yet.

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

Yes, No, and No.

Yes: more expensive strawberries. If you want British workers to harvest them then your have to pay high enough to attract the required workers - at least until robot technology can be developed to the point where it's cheaper and better than armies of low-skilled workers.

No: have you considered the CO2 emitted by all the jets flying fruit pickers back and forward between Poland and Luton, or wherever?

No: farmers will just grow different crops. That's what farmers have always done - they grow whatever crop they can on their land that maximizes the profits they can make - if there are smaller profits to be made from growing strawberries once low-paid eastern European labour becomes more difficult to obtain, then the farmers will switch to growing some other less labour intensive crops.

I don't think its as easy as you think for farmers to just change what they grow and you're assuming that excess demand for that new crop exists too.

Plus remember that as Leave keep telling us we will keep access to the free market there will be cheap EU strawberries and other produce keeping a ceiling on prices.

Unless of course you want to start imposing tariffs etc and i've lived in a place that did that and its not great. Super expensive fruit and veg in limited ranges is not an improvement.

 

[SusanB-M1]

Here's the Brexit perspective from a British owner of an international agribusiness

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-36835454

As one of them said:

People wanted immigrants out of the country, not the country out of Europe. They didn't know what they were voting for.

"

 

[The Don]

People wanted immigrants out of the country, not the country out of Europe. They didn't know what they were voting for.

Some of those in the Leave campaign insisted (and AFAIK still insist, look at David Davis' comments) that the two are not mutually exclusive. We can get rid of (or control) the immigrants and still be in the EEA.

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

Some of those in the Leave campaign insisted (and AFAIK still insist, look at David Davis' comments) that the two are not mutually exclusive. We can get rid of (or control) the immigrants and still be in the EEA.

At some point it's going to dawn on the Leavers that they voted for nothing.

'We need to get rid of the immigrants'

'What like the fruit-pickers?'

'No not them they work hard. They can stay.'

'So the nurses? doctors? cleaners?'

'No they're all fine. Give them visas. Just the scroungers on benefits'

'Erm OK there aren't really any of those though'

'Oh...'

'That'll be £5.87 for your punnet of strawbs please'

'Balls.'

 

[catsmate]

More sky is falling reporting.

If you can't get UK workers to work for you, perhaps consider paying more?

After all competing on price is the worst kind of competing you can do, so I am told...

Then prices rise.

 

[catsmate]

A moment ago I was looking up the birth details of my grandmother, born in what is now N Ireland, but born long before Partition. I wonder what her ghost, and her living co-religionists (she was quite an extreme Protestant) will think of giving up the Queen and joining the Republic. Probably that will be a No.

Maybe there will be a United Ireland compromise, and we could have a Royal Republic or something. But that'll be a No too, from the people who this year were commemorating the centenary of the Proclamation of the Republic in Dublin.

Well Ian Paisley jr. advised people in Norn Iron apply for Irish passports after the Brexit vote.

 

[The Don]

At some point it's going to dawn on the Leavers that they voted for nothing.

Oh, if only it were nothing but from their perspective it'll be the worst combination of:

• No reduction in the level of net migration - indeed it may rise as fewer Brits are able to move abroad
• Exclusion from the EEA because of the restrictions on the free movement of people
• Increased inflation due to a combination of tariffs and lower pound
• The squeeze on local services will get worse as austerity bites harder

 

[catsmate]

Insofar as Dutch produce can still be classified as "fruits and vegetables", as opposed to "biological constructs with the appearance of fruits and vegetables", that is.

I've found their quality to be excellent.

The Netherlands is not very well suited to growing such products, and it shows in quality, badly. UK would be, if anything, worse. Stick to what has evolved to grow well in your climate and import the rest.

Like what?

 

[catsmate]

Here's the Brexit perspective from a British owner of an international agribusiness

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-36835454

I read that this morning, a fascinating glimpse into the Leave mindset.

 

[catsmate]

Yes: more expensive strawberries. If you want British workers to harvest them then your have to pay high enough to attract the required workers - at least until robot technology can be developed to the point where it's cheaper and better than armies of low-skilled workers.

So fewer jobs, higher prices and farm bankruptcies until the robots arrive?

No: have you considered the CO2 emitted by all the jets flying fruit pickers back and forward between Poland and Luton, or wherever?

As compared to shipping kilotonnes of produce?

No: farmers will just grow different crops. That's what farmers have always done - they grow whatever crop they can on their land that maximizes the profits they can make - if there are smaller profits to be made from growing strawberries once low-paid eastern European labour becomes more difficult to obtain, then the farmers will switch to growing some other less labour intensive crops.

Changing crops is not as simple as you blithely assume.

 

[Craig B]

Well Ian Paisley jr. advised people in Norn Iron apply for Irish passports after the Brexit vote.

That's remarkable. I think the Union is falling to bits, if even a Paisley can call for "Ulstermen" to apply to become citizens of the Republic of Ireland! He'll be calling for the reunification of Ireland next, to get Irish passports en masse.

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

Oh, if only it were nothing but from their perspective it'll be the worst combination of:

• No reduction in the level of net migration - indeed it may rise as fewer Brits are able to move abroad
• Exclusion from the EEA because of the restrictions on the free movement of people
• Increased inflation due to a combination of tariffs and lower pound
• The squeeze on local services will get worse as austerity bites harder

Yeah but what I was getting at is that they have voted to get rid of bogeymen that are not real. Get rid of the immigrants is a nice slogan until the reality of what that means hits home. They don't really want fewer people picking fruit, fewer cleaners, fewer nurses etc they want rid of mythical scroungers and (to some extent) Muslims who aren't coming from the EU.

It's pretty sad that none of the mainstream UK parties are prepared to challenge the politically correct orthodoxy that immigration needs to be cut back radically and actually inform the electorate of the truth rather than just pander to their views to win votes but that's where we are.

 

[SusanB-M1]

I had an e-mail request from the Cnservatives this afternoon for money, so I've just e-mailed my MP pointing out that I am not inclined to contribute to Party funds at the moment! If the vote had been to remain, I might have sent a few pounds out of my compensation claim money, but definitely not at the moment.

 

[The Don]

Sounds like Hollande is doing some posturing:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-36853952

French President Francois Hollande will tell Theresa May he wants to start talks on the UK's exit from the EU as soon as possible, when they meet later.

The UK's new prime minister has said she does not want to start the formal Brexit process until 2017.

But Mr Hollande has rejected any "pre-negotiations" - and said the UK could not access the EU free market without accepting free movement of people.

 

[ceptimus]

The strawberry farms I've worked on don't do crop rotation. In some fields they grow only strawberries year after year in poly tunnels. They don't even use the soil - the strawberries are grown in bags of compost laid on the ground.

I think that by using fresh 'grow bags' each year it means the strawberries always have plenty of the right minerals they need, and it minimizes the effects of pests and diseases that affect strawberries that live in the soil.

There are irrigation tubes running the length of the tunnels that keep the strawberries and grow bags watered.

There are typically seven rows of grow bags per tunnel with aisles between them which the human pickers (and sometimes vehicles) can walk/drive over and this allows access to the strawberry plants from both sides of each plant (and above when a vehicle is used).

There are several makes of picker vehicle that have been tried, but they are not robots - they merely carry human pickers who lie on their fronts suspended just above the crop who can then pick the strawberries by hand. The vehicles have conveyor belts and similar to take away the full punnets of strawberries as the workers pick them.

The picker vehicles aren't all that successful and very often pickers still just travel through the tunnels on foot dragging a sled behind them on which to place the punnets of produce.

One of the main advantages of the vehicle method is that the strawberries can be cooled more quickly - which gives higher quality and better consistency - this means that the produce attracts a higher price that offsets the costs of the vehicles and their operation.

Disadvantages of the vehicles are their cost, exhaust fumes in the poly tunnels unless electric vehicles are used, in which case duration range and charging becomes an issue. Also it's normally difficult for a wide vehicle suited to carrying a lot of human pickers to manoeuvre in and out of the tunnels at the ends of the rows - or a lot of valuable growing space has to be turned over to wider track ways and turning areas.

Vehicles have already been tried that can steer themselves along the rows so that extra human workers (drivers) aren't needed. The actual picking is difficult to automate as it requires detecting fruit of the correct ripeness that might be presented at all sorts of angles and partly hidden beneath foliage: humans are good at this but robot vision systems coupled to 'arms' with enough degrees of freedom to reach around and underneath the foliage are expensive and difficult to program. Also no one has yet designed a robot hand that performs anywhere near as well as a human one for the act of picking the strawberries without damaging the plants.

There have been experiments with growing strawberry plants suspended up on frames - and the fruits then tend to hang beneath making them easier to pick - but there is the additional expense of the frames and the aerial watering systems so this approach isn't generally cost-effective.