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Merged Now What?

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As I understand it, an EU member cannot initiate trade talks with a non-EU country. The UK is still an EU member AFAIK.
The status hasn't change. An intention to change the status in the future has been indicated.
And so when is Article 50 going to be invoked?
Let's assume the UK PM has said the UK will leave the EU. Actually we don't need to assume that.

Let's assume some other governments actually believe her.

Let's then assume they would like to have an FTA with the UK in the putative future post EU environment.

Is that really so mystifying and incredible to anyone?

Just because some EU officials have issued a (pretty unenforceable) edict of "Don't mention Brexit before Article 50", that does not constrain informal extra-EU negotiating. Does it?
 
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The illegality of the move, if it is so, might be a bit of a blunder

How in the hell do the Tories think that keeping everyone hostage with this limbo situation is going to give them a sympathetic ear at the European divorce table?
Perhaps they are just not as scared of the EU as you both are, and don't believe that the relative bargaining power is so extremely lopsided as you seem to.

I mean, it's possible you are exaggerating the situation because you don't think the UK leaving the EU was a good idea. That's a pretty common response. But that doesn't make it correct, or sensible.
 
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Perhaps they are just not as scared of the EU as you both are, and don't believe that the relative bargaining power is so extremely lopsided as you seem to.

I mean, it's possible you are exaggerating the situation because you don't think the UK leaving the EU was a good idea. That's a pretty common response. But that doesn't make it correct, or sensible.

Can you explain the benefits of leaving the EU.
 
Perhaps they are just not as scared of the EU as you both are, and don't believe that the relative bargaining power is so extremely lopsided as you seem to.

I mean, it's possible you are exaggerating the situation because you don't think the UK leaving the EU was a good idea. That's a pretty common response. But that doesn't make it correct, or sensible.

Liquid lunch today?
 
Let's assume the UK PM has said the UK will leave the EU. Actually we don't need to assume that.

Let's assume some other governments actually believe her.

Let's then assume they would like to have an FTA with the UK in the putative future post EU environment.

Is that really so mystifying and incredible to anyone?

Just because some EU officials have issued a (pretty unenforceable) edict of "Don't mention Brexit before Article 50", that does not constrain informal extra-EU negotiating. Does it?

lol, no it isn't incredible.

Brexit helps some, like the local fishing industries, and hurts others - but it's over. They voted, Cameron is out, it's looking like the beginning of next year for Article 50.

It is foolish not to pursue initial negotiations for post-Brexit trade.
 
Also note that the Australia deal would probably not be a new deal just a replacement of the deal with the EU under which the UK exports the following to Australia (2015 figures).

So it may not actually replace any exports direct to the EU. It is worth remembering that as part of the EU trade deals we utilise trade agreements with approximately 24 countries external to the EU including the one with Australia.

It is these 24 that need to be secured just to keep external to the EU trade steady. This does change our position in terms of the common market etc.

http://www.worldsrichestcountries.com/top_australia_imports.html

UK's exports to Australia amounted to
$5.3 billion or 2.7% of its overall imports.

1. Vehicles: $1.1 billion
2. Machinery: $864.7 million
3. Electronic equipment: $491.2 million
4. Pharmaceuticals: $480.3 million
5. Medical, technical equipment: $313.9 million
6. Books, newspapers, pictures: $204.8 million
7. Beverages: $189.5 million
8. Gems, precious metals: $178.5 million
9. Organic chemicals: $136.4 million
10. Plastics: $120 million
 
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Let's assume the UK PM has said the UK will leave the EU. Actually we don't need to assume that.
Not one, nay, two UK PMs have said so.

Let's assume some other governments actually believe her.

Let's then assume they would like to have an FTA with the UK in the putative future post EU environment.

Is that really so mystifying and incredible to anyone?
No, but maybe they'd like they'd like to know first what the UK wants in the first place. Boris went AWOL after the referendum, and Davis now has a pie-in-the-sky wishlist which is simply not realistic.

Perhaps they are just not as scared of the EU as you both are, and don't believe that the relative bargaining power is so extremely lopsided as you seem to.

I mean, it's possible you are exaggerating the situation because you don't think the UK leaving the EU was a good idea. That's a pretty common response. But that doesn't make it correct, or sensible.
So what bargaining chip(s) does the UK have? The UK has a population of 65m and a GDP of $2.7t. The rest of the EU has a population of 440m and a GDP of $16.5t. The pound has dropped like a brick. Major financial institutions, which is the most important sector in the UK economy, have already announced plans they're leaving the sinking ship. I don't see much in the way of bargaining power.

And besides economic reasons, there's a very good political reason to make it difficult on the UK to leave. The UK has in the last 43 years continuously been bitching and moaning that they paid too much, and that they wanted an exception for this and for that etc, and the EU has indulged them in that, and it's still not enough. Then it should be abundantly clear that leaving the EU comes with a hefty price tag.

And that is not comparable to Norway or Switzerland, which never became a member in the first place.

Just because some EU officials have issued a (pretty unenforceable) edict of "Don't mention Brexit before Article 50", that does not constrain informal extra-EU negotiating. Does it?

It is foolish not to pursue initial negotiations for post-Brexit trade.
No it isn't. There are very good reasons not to start even informal negotiations.

1) There's nothing to talk about a FTA as long as the UK is still a "normal" EU member.

2) Starting informal talks while the UK PM drags out invoking article 50 makes a mockery of the two year deadline mentioned in the Lisbon Treaty.

Begin this year, Cameron negotiated with the EU some extra perks before the referendum. And he promised to take the UK out of the EU if Leave won. Leave won, and instead of invoking Art 50, Cameron resigned with the prospect that his successor would invoke it right after the start of their tenure in September. Now his successor is there earlier than expected, and she says she will likely invoke it end of the year. This is all a grand delay tactic. If the other EU countries start informally negotiating before Art 50 is formally invoked, there's no reason at all for the UK to formally invoke it timely and they can drag the whole process on and on, and in fact turn this in another round of "can we get some extra perks" negotiations.
 
Haven't we been through this already? How about controlling one's own borders, to name one?

We have, but you never showed something beneficial the UK would gain.

For example, UK controls it's own borders at this time. It did so before the referendum as well. You can't gain something you already have as far as I know.

McHrozni
 
Well we are 'Open fo business'
ARM has just been snapped up by a Japenese technology company.
There goes the higgest part of the UK technology industry, our last 'World Player' in the sector.
 
We have, but you never showed something beneficial the UK would gain.

For example, UK controls it's own borders at this time. It did so before the referendum as well. You can't gain something you already have as far as I know.

McHrozni
Apart from this xenophobia, which indeed swung the popular vote, important "economic benefits" have been perceived by right wing theorists. They are extremely significant. Here's Tim Congdon writing in Newsweek. It is, yet again, the mindless entrepreneur's wet dream. No more environmental or employment legislation or financial regulation nonsense.
... the regulatory zeal of the European Commission ... has placed numerous and unnecessary burdens on businesses ... There are four areas of regulation, as identified by Tim Congdon.

First, the EU has been at the forefront in pronouncing the dangers of global warming and has forced member states to replace low-cost energy sources with high-cost energy sources. The result has been to drive up costs in the steel and heavy industries ...

Second, the ‘social chapter’ and the creation of social legislation have again added to the costs of business which is estimated to cost 1 percent of GDP.

Third, financial regulation has passed from the UK to EU bodies which threaten the most profitable square mile of London as a financial centre. According to the 2014, UK Government competency review on financial services, ‘Over the last 10 years, there has been a roughly 10-fold increase in the volume of EU law on financial services’.

Fourth, there are a huge number of regulations that ban substances and manage processes that is part of the harmonization drive of the single market.​
 
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Apart from this xenophobia, which indeed swung the popular vote, significant "economic benefits" have been perceived by right wing theorists. They are extremely significant. Here's Tim Congdon writing in Newsweek. It is, yet again, the mindless entrepreneur's wet dream. No more environmental or employment legislation or financial regulation nonsense.

In other words ... "This country has had enough of experts. It's time we listened to the kooks!"

For Democracy!

McHrozni
 
In other words ... "This country has had enough of experts. It's time we listened to the kooks!"

For Democracy!

McHrozni

Well that (once again) reinforces my position that improved "competitiveness" post-Brexit will be achieved at the expense of the welfare of the workforce and/or the environment.

We should be out-Germanying Germany not attempting to out-compete developing countries on price :mad:
 
And let foreigners take over businesses in the uk due to the weak pound.

Or has that already happened?

Well someone has seen an opportunity.....

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-36822806

UK technology firm ARM Holdings is to be bought by Japan's Softbank for £24bn ($32bn) it confirmed on Monday.

edited to add....

Apparently we have "taken back our country" but in the process lost control of one of our most important high-tech companies*

It's hard to exaggerate just how important ARM is to the UK tech sector - and the shock many are feeling this morning at the news that it is about to lose its independence.

* - which kind of pre-supposes that one followed the other, may be a stretch
 
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Well that (once again) reinforces my position that improved "competitiveness" post-Brexit will be achieved at the expense of the welfare of the workforce and/or the environment.

We should be out-Germanying Germany not attempting to out-compete developing countries on price :mad:

Competing on price is the worst way of competing one should attempt only when all other options are exhausted. If your aim is to compete only on price from the onset you've already lost. You may still reap some benefits eventually, but the price will be terrible - China is a prime example. It's still better off overall, but not nearly by as much as the economic figures appear to show.

Funnily enough, Germany is highly competitive, despite the 'overburdening' EU regulations and despite being outright slackers compared to many developed nations.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Working_time#Average_annual_hours_actually_worked_per_worker

McHrozni
 
Competing on price is the worst way of competing one should attempt only when all other options are exhausted. If your aim is to compete only on price from the onset you've already lost. You may still reap some benefits eventually, but the price will be terrible - China is a prime example. It's still better off overall, but not nearly by as much as the economic figures appear to show.

I agree. The UK often fails to take advantage of technological innovation preferring to "sweat" existing assets long beyond the point of obsolescence (look at our largely Victorian infrastructure and how outdated most of our motor vehicle production was prior to investment from Japan and Germany) and/or cash in quickly by selling off the intellectual property (why can't we build our own nuclear reactors or wind turbines any more ?). IMO it's part of a corporate (and to a lesser extend national) shortsightedness where the balance sheet for the next 3-6 months (or deficit for the current government) is more important than the long-term financial health of the company (or country).

Funnily enough, Germany is highly competitive, despite the 'overburdening' EU regulations and despite being outright slackers compared to many developed nations.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Working_time#Average_annual_hours_actually_worked_per_worker

McHrozni

IMO that's because of different business models employed in the two countries. German industry (and in particular the largely family-owned "Mittelstand" of medium-sized companies) tends to think in the long term. They seem to look 5-10-20 years ahead and would rather grow gradually and regularly than have "boom and bust". IMO the UK is more like the U.S.. It's more about getting a quick return which means that squeezing an extra penny today is more important than investment which could yield benefits in the long term.

German companies, in my experience, invest heavily in equipment, and their staff. This long-term investment, whilst "expensive" tends to higher productivity in the long run. You can only do that if you have understanding shareholders.
 
Meanwhile in Wales:

Billions of pounds of EU funding for Wales cannot simply be replaced by Westminster, Alun Cairns has suggested.

The Welsh Secretary said it "misses the point" to shift the source of aid from the EU to Westminster after the majority of people in Wales voted to leave the union three weeks ago.

http://www.itv.com/news/wales/updat...h-eu-funding-cant-be-replaced-by-westminster/

Well colour me confused, I thought that everyone in receipt of EU aid would continue to receive it from Westminster until 2020.
 
IMO that's because of different business models employed in the two countries. German industry (and in particular the largely family-owned "Mittelstand" of medium-sized companies) tends to think in the long term. They seem to look 5-10-20 years ahead and would rather grow gradually and regularly than have "boom and bust". IMO the UK is more like the U.S.. It's more about getting a quick return which means that squeezing an extra penny today is more important than investment which could yield benefits in the long term.

German companies, in my experience, invest heavily in equipment, and their staff. This long-term investment, whilst "expensive" tends to higher productivity in the long run. You can only do that if you have understanding shareholders.

I've red an interesting comment on this some time ago. The key is in UK/US investors (in this case) not being sufficiently greedy. They only want to earn money relatively quickly and are satisfied much too soon. Germans on the other hand are far more greedy and want to extract far more value from their investment.

It's an interesting point of view, at least. When not excessive, greed (like sloth) can easily be constructed into a virtue.

McHrozni
 
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