Merged Now What?

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Craig B said:
Meanwhile the residents of sleepy Rathlin Island (where, allegedly, Bruce encountered the indomitable spider whose example of perseverance inspired him to continue his seemingly hopeless and endless struggle) have roused themselves from their slumbers, and now wish to be transferred from the jurisdiction of N Ireland to that of Scotland in order to remain in the EU.
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Quite a large section of Tottenham used to be owned by the Maison de Bruce, there's even a "castle" (over the road from the Broadwater Farm Estate which is very safe today) and a street and an overground station bearing the name. London Borough of Haringey was > 70% remain no doubt preserving the seven century old influence.

(I believe the Bruces had to ship out when they opted to run Scotland and all)
 
Argumemnon said:
... Can I identify as Martian, then?... So how are you European?
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Yes to the first question, at least if there were Martians and you shared some beliefs with them. As to the second, how is anyone anything? There is no 'true' citizen, or we are all in trouble.

Seriously, this is a real problem. When is an immigrant 'local enough?' If it takes being born in a country, what do we say then of the logically necessary parents who are also residing there? Is it only a question of paperwork? That seems potentially insincere and ignores possible intent. If, OTOH, it is a question of ideas and compatibility with laws, well then no litmus tests need be applied on place of origin, race, sex, or ethnicity. I do, however, agree that not every immigrant does indeed share the values of host countries, and there is such a thing as a mercenary, entirely self-serving attitude that cares nothing for laws or society.

ETA: To remain on Brexit: Refer to this NYT article. As described, at least, we see a rather stark example of ethnocentrism that has nothing to do with defending laws or even, gulp, traditional British values. This is the kind of attitude that breeds wars when prevalent among nations.
 
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Francesca R said:
(I believe the Bruces had to ship out [of their properties in England] when they opted to run Scotland and all)
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That is what people who owned property in both England and Scotland had to do. Choose one country and quit the other. Will similar obligations fall upon British owners of property in the EU, once Brexit has been completed?
 
Craig B said:
That is what people who owned property in both England and Scotland had to do. Choose one country and quit the other. Will similar obligations fall upon British owners of property in the EU, once Brexit has been completed?
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That's not a silly question. I'm not sure if any EU countries have rules against foreign ownership of property but they might well do.

I guess it means Scotland no longer has to extend the offer of free university education to EU students and probably staves off any difficult questions about charging English students fees. Unless of course we stay in.

Ultimate irony scenario #1: Scotland declares independence and gets to stay in the EU on UK terms then in 10 years England decides to rejoin and is forced to adopt the Euro and Schengen while Scotland keeps the pound and exemptions. ;)
 
Archie Gemmill Goal said:
Ultimate irony scenario #1: Scotland declares independence and gets to stay in the EU on UK terms then in 10 years England decides to rejoin and is forced to adopt the Euro and Schengen while Scotland keeps the pound and exemptions. ;)
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Did you get that from the Leave campaign cherry pick promise factory? Sounds a bit like one of theirs.
 
Craig B said:
That is what people who owned property in both England and Scotland had to do. Choose one country and quit the other. Will similar obligations fall upon British owners of property in the EU, once Brexit has been completed?
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Your concern for the multiply-landed Britocracy is touching. I'm sure leave voters in Cumbria would have changed their vote in a heatbeat had the scenario of having to surrender their Chateaux Loires been explained too.
 
ceptimus said:
May, as home secretary for many years, had the job of getting immigration down to the 'tens of thousands' promised by the Tory manifestos - a job she has clearly failed to do.

Leadsome showed lack of experience and lack of judgement in handling the 'mothergate' interview and report - but the whole mothergate thing looks like an attempt by the media to smear her.

Under May's leadership, we're likely to get 'Brexit Lite' which will be the worst of all worlds - we'll still have to comply with all EU rules, still have to pay a contribution to the EU and still have to accept uncontrolled immigration - but we'll have even less influence than we did before.
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I would really like it if there could be a rapid but detailed assessment of options. Risk / benefits. 1) Norwegian / swiss model. 2) Iceland model. 3) New Zealand model. What are the possibilities of bilateral trade deal with US, Canada, Japan, China?

I have no doubt that France and Germany will do what they can to swap as much finance / banking business from London to Paris / Frankfurt. (Although more than they think might go to Dublin, Amsterdam.) To keep business London may have to be a little keener on Russia and China and a little less keen on embargoes and sanctions.

In the longer term I suspect the best option might be not being a member of the EEA, if we do adopt a Norwegian model, there will be a campaign to leave. By the time we have left and bid to rejoin (if that happens) the EU the Euro and Schengen areas issues might have been sorted out and not be such a bad thing.
 
Archie Gemmill Goal said:
Ultimate irony scenario #1: Scotland declares independence and gets to stay in the EU on UK terms then in 10 years England decides to rejoin and is forced to adopt the Euro and Schengen while Scotland keeps the pound and exemptions. ;)
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Never say ultimate :

Brexit vote paves way for federal union to save UK, says all-party group
http://www.theguardian.com/politics...es-way-for-federal-union-says-all-party-group

'The governance of England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland should be reinvented within a new voluntary union in a bid to save the UK from disintegration, an independent all-party group of experts will argue this week.

The Constitution Reform Group, convened by former Conservative cabinet minister Lord Salisbury, is to make the the case for radical constitutional change in the UK by claiming the need has been boosted by the vote to leave the European Union.

Their proposals say the existing union should be replaced with fully devolved government in each part of the UK, with each given full sovereignty over its own affairs. The Westminster parliament, the group says, should then be reduced to 146 MPs. The individual nations and regions of the UK would then be encouraged to pool sovereignty to cover the matters they wish to be dealt with on a shared basis.'
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A model for a federal Europe, perhaps.
 
650 MPs currently for Britain, but only 146 for England! Sorry, it's hard to take that too seriously.
 
Planigale said:
.......What are the possibilities of bilateral trade deal with US, Canada, Japan, China?........
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Why does that matter? We're doing huge amounts of trade with these countries already without trade deals.
 
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CapelDodger said:
Never say ultimate :

Brexit vote paves way for federal union to save UK, says all-party group
http://www.theguardian.com/politics...es-way-for-federal-union-says-all-party-group


A model for a federal Europe, perhaps.
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My preferred model, actually. Greater union really needs an offsetting devolution to regional communities, giving people not just the feeling but the reality of a stronger voice in many things that affect them and which can be decided locally. At the same time, there is a common supra-regional government for common affairs, in which each region has elected representatives. More or less, actually, as now, but with the nation-states broken up along natural cultural lines.

Freedom of movement is now counterbalanced by the greater ability of each region to invest in and enhance its own local preferences in organization of regional affairs, language, cultural celebrations, and civil society.
 
Francesca R said:
Your concern for the multiply-landed Britocracy is touching.
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I have no special concern for them, beyond normal human affinity. I merely wondered if their position would become more complex or insecure following Brexit.

If you want me to express my views on the concentration of land ownership here in Scotland, I will happily do so, and my concern for the big landowners will not be extreme, believe me.
 
MikeG said:
650 MPs currently for Britain, but only 146 for England! Sorry, it's hard to take that too seriously.
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I'm reading that as 146 MPs in the Union of the UK Parliament and a completely new English parliament where people can debate how bad foreigners are and how much better England was before the brown people came and then sing songs about world wars and world cups.

MikeG said:
Why does that matter? We're doing huge amounts of trade with these countries already without trade deals.
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Why do all 'Leave' voices have to be so economically illiterate? They aren't stupid but they do a hell of a good job of acting as if they are.

CapelDodger said:
Never say ultimate :

Brexit vote paves way for federal union to save UK, says all-party group
http://www.theguardian.com/politics...es-way-for-federal-union-says-all-party-group


A model for a federal Europe, perhaps.
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So Scotland would be independent and then a member of the United Kingdom Union and the European Union simultaneously? Sounds complicated. Of course the proposal boils down to 4 independent nations that co-operate as they see fit which is not something new. I think the SNP have often touted a joint defence policy for example and their sharing of the pound was another example of their willingness to co-operate when it made sense. It was those south of the border who seem to lack the ability to play nicely with others as the recent vote has shown. I assume they would once again decide that divided we fall was preferable to standing with foreigners.
 
SusanB-M1 said:
I only turn on TV once or twice a year, but today I watched (managed to survive listening to!) Andrew Marr's programme. Did anyone see that person he was interviewing just before Jeremy Corbyn? Someone called Arron Banks. I didn't like the sound of him at all, and taking a glance at the wikipedia entry, I find my opinion confirmed.
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I had a look at wiki and it appears he had a Russian wife. I believe Farage has a German wife.

It all seems a bit strange to me.
 
Archie Gemmill Goal said:
So Scotland would be independent and then a member of the United Kingdom Union and the European Union simultaneously?
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No, it would first be a member of the Federal Union of Kingdoms, which, by its wild success, would eventually provide a model for Europe in general. And if monarchy's not your thing it could be the Federal Union of Commonwealths and Kingdoms.
 
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