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NOVA Reminder - String Theory

Tez said:

Anyway, ST does make testable predictions, just not testable right now.

Isn't that basically admitting that it is not testable, considering when we talk about a hypothesis being testable we mean testable today or tomorrow, not X number of years down the road, where X can be any positive number?

God hypothesis, that is testable... just not right at this moment. Sometime in the future though. ;)

So String Hypothesis might be science later, because it will be testable later, but it is not science because now it is not testable. (?)

I also have a hard time with the belief issues in saying/hoping/wishing that something will be testable. How do we know that?
 
peptoabysmal said:
The one point I got out of the show, in favor of string theory is that under the two current systems, the "fabric" of space is very dynamic and chaotic at very small sizes and very smooth at great big sizes. This can't be. So far, string theory is the only one which unifies the difference for gravity in both quantum mechanics and general relativity. Forgive my clumsy explanation here.

That's one of the reasons I was disappointed with the show. It seemed to me that it emphasized the wrong things.

The main problem providing an impetus to looking for a Theory of Everything is that gravity seems very different from the other three forces. The electric, strong, and weak forces are nicely understood a quantum forces mediated by an exchange of virtual particles. However, according to General Relativity (GR), which is a wildly successful theory, gravity isn't a force but rather the absence of a force. The presence of energy/momentum, of which mass is the most obvious kind since we have some big ones in the solar system, distorts space-time. The seemingly curved path that a planet or a thrown baseball follows is actually a "straight line" in spacetime (technically called a "geodesic"), so it's just plain old intertia. It only looks curved because we insist on separating time and space in our thinking.

So the desire is to find some sort of unifying principle, so that we don't have to remember as many theories. Just as in the 19th century it was discovered that mechanics and temperature were just two different ways of looking at the same thing, it would be nice if GR and QM should turn out to be different ways of looking at the same thing.

Of course, nature is in no way bound by our desires, but there are some tantalizing hints that this should be possible. Unfortunately, the show gave the impression that quantum behavior was only important at small scales. This is completely untrue. While the strong and weak forces do not appear to play much of a role over large distances, the electric force certainly does. The universe is full of light, and for most of its lifetime, light has played a significant role in its development. Our eyes are quantum devices, Schroedinger's Cat in miniature in the form of trans-retinal, a simple molecule that is instable enough that a photon coming in increases the probability that it will twitch into a different shape, which is "felt" by other molecules and converted into a perception of vision. The appearance of a sunset or the Mona Lisa is a quantum event. Of course, transistors and vacuum tubes are quantum devices, too.

We also have a perfectly good quantum theory for the electric force and light at large scales: Quantum Electrodynamics. It's elegant and simple; it has all the funny quantum behavior built in; and it fits GR like a glove. It even suggest a mechanism according to which objects travel along geodesics. Since Newton, inertia has just been taken for granted, but QED actually shows a mechanism.

Of course, one of the other parts of physics has involved trying to come up with something for the strong and weak forces. Part of this is investigating something called Quantum Chromadynamics, or QCD, which is a lot like QED except that the equations are much harder to solve. I did some work on QCD back in the early 90s, and at least then, we were bound by processor power. I don't know about the state of the art now.

But still, back to harmonizing GR and QM. Since GR and QM are both so successful and well supported, maybe they're both right. This suggests that it should be possible to view all four forces either as quantum events mediated by force carriers (in which case, there would have to be a graviton) or as distortions of the spacetime in which we live (in which case, there would have to be extra dimensions, because just gravity seems to "use up" the three ordinary dimensions of space). The show did have a nod to this, in the form of the old guy in black and white who was ticked off at Einstein, but it wasn't emphasized nearly enough.

Personally, I think that the Inflationary Universe and String Theory folks are on to something that will lead to the real "theory of everything".

I have some problems with the inflationary universe stuff. Perhaps this is because I don't understand it well enough, and I've had more than one astrophysicist call me a crackpot, which may very well be true. But I have a gut feeling that it is a false lead, resulting from trying to maintain an unstable blend of classical and relativistic thought.

For example, the universe looks like an expanding sphere with us at the center. I guess that any civilization anywhere in the universe would see exactly the same thing. However, when you look due North, say, to the 2.7 K background radiation, you're looking at a time when the universe was a lot smaller. I don't know exactly the size at which we could be expected to see photons, but it doesn't really matter very much. Let's call it basketball-sized. So then when you look due South to the 2.7 K background radiation, you're looking at an event in spacetime that wasn't any more tan a basketball away from due North. Extending to a singular Big Bang, in classical terms, the circumference of this sphere when time is ignored would have to be zero. But this suggests that in spacetime it isn't a sphere. Maybe it's a projective plane crossed with a sphere or a torus or somtheing like that. (ISTM that the extra dimensions in String Theory would have to be toroidal or projective planes themselves).

I can't think of a way to test this that doesn't involve some really, really long baseline interferometry.
 
Tez said:
Anyway, ST does make testable predictions, just not testable right now. I would rather call Evolution an empirical observation and Natural Selection a fundamental principle...
Tez,

I don't how I missed this when I posted last night, it removes me fears about the inifinite tunability. Thanks Tez,

Walt
 
bignickel said:
Gosh, I'm not sure what everyone was expecting here in just 4 50 minute episodes.
Three 50-minute episodes. The conclusion next Tuesday is only from 8-9 PM.
 
Oh brilliant. THREE episodes? I'm waiting a week just to watch 1 episode? Jeez.

And I thought I was pissed off enough last night after rushing home and finding some stupid PBS symphony performance on instead.
 
T'ai Chi said:


Isn't that basically admitting that it is not testable, considering when we talk about a hypothesis being testable we mean testable today or tomorrow, not X number of years down the road, where X can be any positive number?

God hypothesis, that is testable... just not right at this moment. Sometime in the future though. ;)

So String Hypothesis might be science later, because it will be testable later, but it is not science because now it is not testable. (?)

I also have a hard time with the belief issues in saying/hoping/wishing that something will be testable. How do we know that?

A hypothesis being testable has nothing to do with a particular timeframe. For instance - the general relativistic deflection of light by the sun prediction took a while to verify. Now, if there had been no solar eclipses for 50 years after 1915, then GR would not be any less of a testable theory - the limitation on testability was technological. Guth's inflationary theory was intensively studied for over 20 years before hard evidence came in. It was studied because people saw the potential explanatory power of the idea, and knew that it was in principle testable.

However with ST the problem is quite different, and not one we've ever faced with a proposed scientific theory before - for this reason if I was a student in "history and philosophy of science" or similar I'd be preparing papers pointing out this paradigm shift away from Kuhn!!

The difference is the problems are purely mathematical - unlike Walter Waynes earlier example there is at most a couple of free parameters (and in the simplest form only a single free one) in the theory. THe problem is we do not have the mathematical sophisitication to extract the ST prediction of the mass of an electron, or the weak mixing angle etc etc - things that presently are empirical observations.

So, if you want to say that a theory should be able to make a prediction that is falsifiable within X months (as is your perogative), then perhaps you could call string theory a "proto-theory". I doubt the people investigating it would care, they'll keep plugging along because the potential reward is huge....
 
Walter Wayne said:

Walters Wave Theory
Any phenomenon can be described 2 data-points is a result of Waves intersecting and can be described by the equation below, find something that disproves my mystical waves. Any data that you come up with I can match by changing A<sub>i</sub> and omega<sub>i</sub>. This can be expanded to phenomenon that are described by numerous data-points but the equation begins to look messy.

I am not saying that String theory is equivalent to this, but my impression from the show was, if the theory fails, change some constants, and dimensions, change string size ... we'll curve fit it. If this is in fact the case with string theory, then I don't think it has anything more to do with the underlying mechanisms than my wave theory above.

Walt

Okay, as for the wave theory: this is the idea of Fourier summation, and it is true. That exact equation can be used to form any mathematical function that exsists (except you need one more term to represent a phase shift). Anyhow, why do you imply that the equation has nothing to do with the underlying mechanism? It is completely fair to say that everything in the universe is a summation of wave functions... And if string theory describes mathematically the structure of the universe and there are no contradictory observations, then it can be fairly considered the "correct" model of the universe. This is kind of a positivist viewpoint that Hawking often talks about in his books.
It's like this: We can never get a truly intuitive understanding of mechanisms that are out of perceptual bounds. So, any model that fits the data can be considered "true." For instance, let's take a very well-tested theory, quantum mechanics. One very specific part of this says that an electron exists at ALL places in the universe at any given time. (See "Feynman's sum-over-paths") Well, does that mean that the actual mechanism of QM is a tiny little ball of negative charge that actually exsists in all places? No. But, it is a fair model because it describes what we actually measure.
 
Walter Wayne said:
Walters Wave Theory
Any phenomenon can be described 2 data-points is a result of Waves intersecting and can be described by the equation below, find something that disproves my mystical waves. Any data that you come up with I can match by changing A<sub>i</sub> and omega<sub>i</sub>. This can be expanded to phenomenon that are described by numerous data-points but the equation begins to look messy.

I am not saying that String theory is equivalent to this, but my impression from the show was, if the theory fails, change some constants, and dimensions, change string size ... we'll curve fit it.

Of course, something that could be arbitrarily tuned like Walter's Wave Theory would be useless. Also, of course, you know from Fourier analysis that WWT can be tuned to match any signal.

On the other hand, all theories require tuning, usually in the form of a constant (like c and g in GR). To be useful, there have to be a limited number of things to tune, and when you tune it for one phenomena, a seemingly different phenomenon drops into place.

Even if it doesn't make testable predictions that are not predicted by GR and or QED/QCD, it still might be useful if it provided one set of equations instead of several. My impression is that string theory is a real mess right now, but there is the potential for cleaning it up. I'm hoping that someone will find that some variants of string theory turn out to be mathematically nonsensical. It also should make testable predictions about the functioning of gravity at small scales. These may not require such Herculean measures to test; while it is practically impossible to get the kind of energies that were present back when people think the symmetry broke between gravity and the rest of the forces, people are sometimes clever and can sometimes figure out a way of cracking the nut.

Remember that the crisis over relativity lasted from 1865, when Maxwell published his equations, to 1915, when Einstein published GR. That's fifty years of a lot of intelligent people working very hard to figure it out.

Speaking of symmetry, a lot of theoretical work in physics involves looking for patterns in mathematics. In that spirit, I hereby present the Pepke Dimensional Conjecture (PDC), which is not entirely tongue-in-cheek but is based entirely on mathematical intuition at this point. I'll submit it to a prediction registry, if anybody knows of one.

I predict that the universe will turn out to have exactly 32 dimensions, no more, no fewer. These will consist of the following:

  • One time dimension, which is special
  • Three ordinary spatial dimensions that, with time, describe gravitation
  • Four additional spatial dimensions which, with the above, describe the electromagnetic force
  • Eight additional spatial dimensions which, with the above, describe the weak force
  • Sixteen additional spatial dimensions which, with the above, describe the strong force

Each of the sets of dimensions may have very different geometries from the other groups, but the dimensions will be consistent within each set.

No extra forces will be discovered.
 
teddosan said:
Anyhow, why do you imply that the equation has nothing to do with the underlying mechanism? It is completely fair to say that everything in the universe is a summation of wave functions...
It is fair to say something is a summation of wave functions, however can I fairly say it is a sum of waves? There are more than one set of orthonormal-functions that can be used to describe anything.
epepke said:
On the other hand, all theories require tuning, usually in the form of a constant (like c and g in GR). To be useful, there have to be a limited number of things to tune, and when you tune it for one phenomena, a seemingly different phenomenon drops into place.
All the equations are tunable, but not infinitely tunable. For example, Newton said, the force of gravity is proportional to the product of the masses of the bodies involved, and inversely proportional to the square of the distance. Walter's Wave Theory of gravity makes not statement which is testable?


However, there are several people here who know a lot more than I do about String theory who do say it makes real predictions, so I take my misgivings about the theory. However just so people know what set of my alarm bells from the show was
a) Scientist notices that equation for strong forces resemble sting vibrations, then seeks to finds that other forces can be described some way (does Fourier theory and sting vibrations sound similar) It made me wonder if anything could be forced to fit.
b) There was much time in the show spent describing tuning efforts which reinforced my misgivings from a.
I will take the advice of others here and put away these misgivings?

Walt

I hope no one tried to read that before I edited in addition formating.
 
BUMP

Just a reminder that part 3 (of 3) is coming on Tuesday night.

We'll see what the program does with the last segment.
 
For UK viewers, this series is showing on Sunday at 8 pm on Channel 4.

Quite a good programme last week, although a bit repetitive (as has been pointed out), and the presenter has a bit of an irritating whine to his voice. And it's a bit repetitive (as has been pointed out (twice))


Edited to add: We didn't realise it was a series. We watched for ages as they went on and on about Newton and Einstein. Then they did a short bit about strings, and said "And that's String Theory!" - roll credits.

Our jaws hit the floor :D
 
Originally posted by Tez

"Anyway, ST does make testable predictions, just not testable right now. "

I had this discussion with someone who held that since the equations (ST ) outcome could not be demonstrated empirically that the theory was equal to a brilliant fiction. My rejoinder was that the theory expresses itself in many ways that are concrete and observable phenomenon. Elongation, time dilation and the equivalence of matter and energy have all been demonstrated in various ways, from physical behavior of artillery shells, the atomic clocks on airplanes experiments to the outcome of studies at CERN and Batavia. (shame that the SSCollider project in Texas got canceled, damn beauracrats). Then by extrapolation one could say that the expression of the theory seen by these examples demonstraits a large probably that the final expression of STR may be assumed.

My problem in regards to String theory is that it does not enjoy the same accountability. QM ( as far as I know) has a perfect track record of squaring the prediction with the observed even tho many still consider some postulates to be dark arts.

String theory, M-theory, Brane theory, all present a case where the phenomenon cannot be either directly observed or tested, even an ontological bases can only be addressed as a mathematical musing on a blackboard.. The use of Kaluza-Klein is extended to include Calabi-Yau Manifolds, a shaky foundation and from there the models can includes 7,10,11 dimensions as a lattice to moderate or control the strings. Inductive reasoning to be sure, but the methodology seems to be , encounter a problem- adjust as necessary.( not saying that is not valid when trying to synthesize an approach) making the theory more philosophy then physics. The main confusion for me is this abstraction will remain unobservable or provable except for a mathematical construct, or is the Planck length not as indomitable as we think? Is c next? =) Maybe I'm just stupid but that sounds like solving a jigsaw puzzle using an X-acto knife and a rubber mallet.
 
New Episode

I know this is a stupid thing to talk about but did anyone notice Ed Witten's voice. From the way he talks I couldn't help but imagine he is some kind of genius even if I didn't know anything about him.

Edit: Here I found a interview someone did with him. http://www.superstringtheory.com/people/witten.html

It sounds like he is having difficulty talking to such low mortals. :p
 
Overall I was disappointed with the NOVA show on Elegant Universe. Greene is a good host, but there was a lot of repetition between the 10/28 show and the 11/4 show. Heck, the director could have eliminated the repetition and made it into one show, not two.

Toward the end I was also getting annoyed at the heavy use of analogies and metaphors. Stop telling me what the universe is like and tell me what it is -- at least according to string theory.
 

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