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Nothing vs Everything

KingMerv00 said:

You are getting closer to answering my question.

From this I infer that a "mindless" world would be chaotic, correct? And that's how you would tell the differencne.

First off "chaotic" is relative. You have just arbitrarily decided that the universe is a vast machine. Where you see perfect order I see disorder.

Here is my main point. How is your hypothesis falsifiable? By what method do we begin to test it?
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I think the key here is to understand that chaos is only an appearance, and that nothing truly happens at random. Isn't this in fact the doctrine Scientific Determinism preaches?
 
Donks said:

A universal pattern by which structure forms? No, I do not believe there is.
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So, what is it about the Universe that serves to "remind it" (a memory) what is? Why doesn't the Universe become all convoluted and turn into something else in other words?

Good, because I didn't ask you that.
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Yeah, but this is exactly what you were getting at. ;)


Ok, which ways are there to affirm that God exists?
How do you define "the intelligence of the universe"?
How do you measure the greatness of the universe or that of its parts?
Do the components of the Universe work together to accomplish some goal?
Are the components of the Universe under supervision?
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What am I an encyclopedia?
 
Iacchus said:
I think the key here is to understand that chaos is only an appearance, and that nothing truly happens at random. Isn't this in fact the doctrine Scientific Determinism preaches?
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Questions do not answer questions.

Determinism is not a certainty thanks to QM. It is not a impossibility yet either.

Moving on.

I am willing to play a simple hypothetical game here.

I will, for the moment, agree with you that the order of the universe may have been caused by an intelligence.

Now I am PLEADING with you to , for the moment, agree that the laws of the universe are unintelligent and have existed for eternity and that the order of the universe may have been caused by NO supreme intelligence.

This is ALL hypothetical.

Now, as two intelligent people, we get together and need to figure out which of these two possibilities is the best candidate. How do we do that?
 
Iacchus said:
First of all, the Universe is the Universe, there's nothing hypothetical about its existence. Second of all, there's nothing chaotic (mindless) about the way it functions. Can a computer function wihtout a mind or central processor? No. Why? Because it's all about timing and accuracy. Indeed, it can run thousands of processes at once which, may appear to be at random or chaotic, and yet that's simply not the case. The same thing applies to all the timing and accuracy which is necessary to provide a "stable" Universe. There's nothing about the Universe which does not behave according to what it's been "told" what to do ... i.e., through the "collective process" which holds everything together.
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And another thing: There's nothing "solid" about Swiss Cheese. It's all about the holes.
 
hgc said:

And another thing: There's nothing "solid" about Swiss Cheese. It's all about the holes.
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Some holes are bigger than others. ;) Yes, it's all about the contrast between some "thing" in particular and, the absence thereof. So, does absolutely "no" thing exist? ... Only in respect to "some" thing in particular.
 
Iacchus said:
Some holes are bigger than others. ;) Yes, it's all about the contrast between some "thing" in particular and, the absence thereof. So, does absolutely "no" thing exist? ... Only in respect to "some" thing in particular.
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I understand what you're saying, except for every single word of it.
 
We do not get you are saying. Not because it is beyond OUR understanding but because it is beyond ALL understanding.

When you get a chance, answer my post Iacchus.
 
Iacchus said:
It's stable enough to allow you to get up and take a dump every morning isn't it? ;)
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Not if a black hole opens. Not if the sun goes out. I can't take a dump near Betelgeuse, or Rigel, or somewhere in-between.

Just because one bolt is secure doesn't mean the whole shuttle is secure.
 
zaayrdragon said:
Not if a black hole opens. Not if the sun goes out. I can't take a dump near Betelgeuse, or Rigel, or somewhere in-between.

Just because one bolt is secure doesn't mean the whole shuttle is secure.
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Just think about what a small fraction of the universe is occupied by planents and stars. Hundreds of millions of lightyears of nothing. Doesn't seemed real logical to me.
 
Ahh gentle participants, you have experiance the irrelevent fog of obfuscation that is Iaachus. A person who is incapable of direct answers or writng a sentence that does not end with a question mark. He is like a frightened boxer that dances just outside of his arm's reach, never commiting to a punch. All bluster, but no substance.
He refuses definition, because to commit to a definition means that he has to actually think about what he is talking about.

He is like the fourtune cookie. Quaint but meaningless.
He is the dime-store fountain of the latest psuedo-intellectual swill that is hoisted by the psychic/mass-media corporate marketing orgy.

So debate with him if you must. But his assertions will go unsupported, Your questions unanswered, His fog undiminished.

He is an obfuscation in a phalicy wrapped in a lightly sweetened cookie shell.

enjoy.
 
uruk said:
<snip>He is like the fourtune cookie. Quaint but meaningless.
He is the dime-store fountain of the latest psuedo-intellectual swill that is hoisted by the psychic/mass-media corporate marketing orgy.

So debate with him if you must. But his assertions will go unsupported, Your questions unanswered, His fog undiminished.

He is an obfuscation in a phalicy wrapped in a lightly sweetened cookie shell.

enjoy.
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Orgies? Phalicies? We know what you're thinking of...

Or did you mean 'Fallacy'?

I saw some phallicies at the store - they were being perused by two nuns, three old ladies, and a nurse.
 
zaayrdragon said:

Not if a black hole opens. Not if the sun goes out. I can't take a dump near Betelgeuse, or Rigel, or somewhere in-between.

Just because one bolt is secure doesn't mean the whole shuttle is secure.
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You know something, I really don't care what you have to think. Since you have so clearly demonstrated your total lack of respect towards me in the past. Why should it make a difference now?
 
KingMerv00 said:

Questions do not answer questions.

Determinism is not a certainty thanks to QM. It is not a impossibility yet either.
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And might I suggest determinism is what proceeds from the quantum act of free will? Or, at least this would be compatible with a wholly dualistic system. In other words the initial cause would be God which, is based upon free will ... or, God's Love.


Moving on.

I am willing to play a simple hypothetical game here.

I will, for the moment, agree with you that the order of the universe may have been caused by an intelligence.

Now I am PLEADING with you to , for the moment, agree that the laws of the universe are unintelligent and have existed for eternity and that the order of the universe may have been caused by NO supreme intelligence.

This is ALL hypothetical.

Now, as two intelligent people, we get together and need to figure out which of these two possibilities is the best candidate. How do we do that?
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Is there anything intelligent about the act of moving an object from point A to point B? Well, it all depends on what precedes the act that determines this, for example if it involves moving my hand which requires my will in order to so. That's an indication of intelligence. However, just because an event doesn't occur at the "conscious level," does not suggest that it or, any other event for that matter (universally speaking), does not occur at the subconscious level. In other words the Universe may very well be working at the level of a subconscious mind. ;) Remember Jung's, collective unconscious? So, in answer to your question, I don't know? But then again that's not to say we're barking up the wrong tree? ... :)
 
Iacchus said:
You know something, I really don't care what you have to think. Since you have so clearly demonstrated your total lack of respect towards me in the past. Why should it make a difference now?
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ZD responds to your points with thoughtful answers. The fact that your points cannot withstand his explorations is not ZD's fault. This is not lack of respect--lack of respect would be seen in either thoughtless acceptance or thoughtless dismissal of your ideas. ZD does neither.
 
It really hurts my brain to read Iacchus' posts after a while.
 
Mercutio said:

ZD responds to your points with thoughtful answers. The fact that your points cannot withstand his explorations is not ZD's fault. This is not lack of respect--lack of respect would be seen in either thoughtless acceptance or thoughtless dismissal of your ideas. ZD does neither.
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Apparently there's more than one dragon in our midst now isn't there? ;)
 
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