Nothing exist until after we perceive it

[Franko]

Here's an experiment I would like those who claim this to participate in. Let's take Shirley MacLaine, one of the more prominent people who claim this. Let's choose a suicidal person, too, and call him Bill.

Shirley and Bill are standing in a field, a few yards apart. Bill is facing her, she is standing with her back to Bill. Unknown to her, Bill picks up a brick, and throw it at her.

Bill knows that the brick is flying towards her, so the brick exists, because Bill thinks of it, and is aware of it. To Shirley, the brick does not exist, because she doesn't know it does.

Once information is created (like “matter”) it cannot be destroyed, only its form (configuration or arrangement) can be modified.

The Brick initially exist as information (information NOT created by Bill incidentally). When Bill throws the brick at Shirley what has really happened is Bill’s consciousness has created information that conveys [brick thrown at Shirley]. This information is being transmitted to Shirley. It does not become reality for her until She perceives (receives) that information, either by seeing the approaching brick, or feeling the approaching brick as it strikes the back of her head (entering her perception range).

If the brick misses Shirley and She never perceives that it was thrown, then from her POV Bill never threw a brick at her. This is very similar to the notion that although little green leprechauns genuinely exist in reality on a far away planet they do not exist from your point of view until you perceive them (until you perceive evidence for their existence).

Before the brick hits Shirley, Bill shoots himself in the head, and is dead instantly. Bill stops thinking about the brick. Ergo, according to Shirley's claim, the brick ceases to exist.

If Bill wrote a book (information) before he died and then shot himself in the head, is the information in the book destroyed? What makes you believe that all of the information a consciousness created “ceases to exist” when the consciousness “ceases to exist”?

Is Shirley going to be hit by a brick or not?

If Bill transmitted the Information about the thrown brick to a neutral third party (i.e. TLOP or “God”) before he shot himself in the head, then the neutral third party is the one transmitting the information to Shirley – not Bill. Ergo, the existence of Bill is irrelevant to Shirley receiving the information about the incoming brick.

 

[Marquis de Carabas]

What if Bill shouts "I will throw a brick at you, Shirley," within earshot of Shirley, then throws the brick, then shoots himself in the head quickly enough that he no longer observes the brick?

Shirley has perceived a statment about the brick, but not the brick itself. In the (admittedly short) interval between the reception of the statement and the reception of the brick to the back of her head, what is the status of the brick?

 

[Antonio Alejandro]

Nothing in time and space is absolute

1+1=2 is not an absolute truth
it is a conceptual truth.
it is not absolute because each of the four individual symbols 1, +, =, and 2 cannot be defined until after you made reference to other conceptual-symbols. The number 1 would be meaningless if it is does not have a reference. The number 1 does not have any intrinsic meaning. Its meaningful existence is only relational. This is true of all symbols, and all concepts.
In Eastern Mysticism the reason given to this is because causality is thought-based. The effect, our conditioned existence, the reality in front of us, carries this characteristic.
There will be those that apparently will not understand what it is meant by "our inability to understand any symbol intrinsically", those that feel that this logic is faulty, the challenge would be to provide a sample of unitary logic.

 

[Franko]

What if Bill shouts "I will throw a brick at you, Shirley," within earshot of Shirley, then throws the brick, then shoots himself in the head quickly enough that he no longer observes the brick?

Shirley has perceived a statement about the brick, but not the brick itself. In the (admittedly short) interval between the reception of the statement and the reception of the brick to the back of her head, what is the status of the brick?

The “brick”, the “gun”, and the “universe” around Bill and Shirley only exist as information projected by the omnipotent Atheist “God” TLOP (The Laws of Physics). When Bill “shouts” out to Shirley what is really happening is Bill is conveying information to TLOP, and then TLOP is relaying that information to Shirley (and back to Bill as well). When Bill “throws” the “brick” all that is really happening is his mind is conveying information to TLOP and then TLOP relays it that information to anyone who is “within range” to perceive it – in this case Shirley.

Bill, Shirley, and TLOP are the only “real” entities (consciousnesses). The gun, the brick, and Bill and Shirley’s physical bodies are nothing but information transmitted by TLOP.

 

[Marquis de Carabas]

"Nothing in time and space is absolute" is not an absolute truth
it is a conceptual truth
it is not absolute because each of the individual symbols N, o, t, h, i, sod it, you get the idea...

 

[Marquis de Carabas]

Bill, Shirley, and TLOP are the only “real” entities (consciousnesses). The gun, the brick, and Bill and Shirley’s physical bodies are nothing but information transmitted by TLOP.

TLOP are a conscious entity? Just like Shirley and Bill? Is there any difference between the consciousness of TLOP and those of S&B? If so, what is that difference? If not, why are TLOP necessary to transmit the shout to Shirley?

 

[ImpyTimpy]

Of course I don't exist. That's because you don't perceive my posts until after you log in here. During that time, the magical pixies actually do all the work. When you read my post I suddenly begin to exist and the pixies are no longer necessary. How do I know this? Because I'm a mystic and mysticism knows more then science so there!

Impy, are you sure you're not taking this thread way more seriously than I am? I can't see you, so perhaps you don't exist.

~~ Paul

 

[uruk]

Call me dense, but I think all these mystics seem to refuse to believe that the "self " springs forth from the neural processes in the brain.
They believe in a soul which rides around in our bodies like you drive a Yugo. Seems to me like wishfull thinking that the self continues on after death dispite the fact that there is no proof or evidence of this.

Anyhoo, Just because the mind interprets the stimuli from the sensory organs into a view or perception of the universe doesn't mean the universe doesn't exist. The universe has to exist objectively and outside our perception in order to stimulate our sensory organs to produce a perception. And it appeares like semantical masturbation to think that things don't exist untill it comes into our perception, that's just silly and egotistical.

And even if it is true that the "self"or soul drives our bodies around. The "self" still has to percieve the universe by physical means. The universe and the laws of physics which stimulate the
sensory organs, the organs, the neurons which processe the
stimuli into a perception still exsist and are physical.

 

[thaiboxerken]

Am I not perceiving the computer? I require my senses to type onto a computer.

Wow, you're stupid.

Whoa, I see Franko is back, and he's still on my ignore list.

 

[CFLarsen]

Antonio Alejandro,

Please answer the question:

Will Shirley be hit by the brick?

Just yes or no, please.

 

[c4ts]

Gee, I dunno, maybe my computer suddenly entered its existence with a whole bunch of my dad's files including his website already on the hard drive as soon as I perceived it for the first time. Yeah, and the moon landing was faked...

 

[Ceinwyn]

If Franko and Antonio get together and devise a time/space/graviton machine, does that mean we're in the future, yet still here, but dead. No wait, so that would mean that the fut







this post edited by buki from the future. Or dead. I haven't decided yet.

 

[Yahweh]

Re: Nothing in time and space is absolute

1+1=2 is not an absolute truth
it is a conceptual truth.

This is because numbers are abstract concepts, they can be applied to concrete objects (or left abstract... whatever). It's been known for a long long time that numbers are merely concepts (however most would disagree that numbers are "meaningless" until they are applied to a concrete reference source, their numberical value and meaning are already described in their definition). Its never been a mystery to Philosophers or Mathematicians... or anyone who've taken the time out of there life to think about it.

 

[Yahweh]

The “brick”, the “gun”, and the “universe” around Bill and Shirley only exist as information projected by the omnipotent Atheist “God” TLOP (The Laws of Physics).

The brick, the gun, the universe, Bill, and Shirley dont exist as information, they exist concretely in terms of matter and natural phenomena.

Omnipotence is a self-defeating term. God cannot be omnipotent, or at most he couldnt exist outside the realm of logic.

Your definition of Atheist is incorrect. Atheists lack religous beliefs, they have no Gods.

The Laws of Physics are not omnipotent, they are not God.

You dont know much about Physics, do you? (I'd love to read a Physics term paper authored by you, I havent had a good laugh in a while.)

When Bill “shouts” out to Shirley what is really happening is Bill is conveying information to TLOP, and then TLOP is relaying that information to Shirley (and back to Bill as well).

Wrong.

What is really happening is Bill's brain sends chemo-electrical signals down to Bill's vocal cords, this causes his vocal cords to vibrate. When Bill's vocal cord's vibrate, they push against the matter in and around Bill's throat. These vibrations carry through the air (because air, water, and most other surfaces carry vibrations easily), then they enter Shirley's ear. Her eardrum oscillates to same frequency as the vibrations which entered it, the ear is "wired" (for lack of wanting to get techinal about it) to send chemo-electrical signals to her Cerebral Cortex. From there, the signals are "converted" (more lack of technical descriptions) to give her the sensation of sound.

While the Laws of Physics are certainly involved, you're applied description of how they are used was incorrect.

When Bill “throws” the “brick” all that is really happening is his mind is conveying information to TLOP and then TLOP relays it that information to anyone who is “within range” to perceive it – in this case Shirley.

Bill, Shirley, and TLOP are the only “real” entities (consciousnesses). The gun, the brick, and Bill and Shirley’s physical bodies are nothing but information transmitted by TLOP.

Bill, Shirley, the gun, the brick, and everything else which exists in the universe are the only real entities (they exist in terms of matter and physical phenomena).

The Laws of Physics are not conscious, unless you have a grossly insane conception of what the words "Physics" and "Consciousness" mean.

 

[Some Friggin Guy]

Okay, here's another expiriment:

We take Justine Timberlake and cut him into small pieces.

Then we put him in a blender for about 15 minutes.


Now, this expiriment doesn't really prove anything, but it would be a lot of fun, don't you think?

 

[Filippo Lippi]

AA = MM?

 

[Correa Neto]

OK, Bill never shouted, never told anyone about his action, no one saw he throwing the brick (or if someone saw, he/she/it never cared about warning Shirley about it); he threw the brick then died while the brick was on the air, heading towards Shirley. The brick missed Shiley (dammit...). But Shirley saw the brick as it missed her ear by a milimeter...

How come? Shouldn´t the brick have faded in to oblivion? Or the brick was cast in to universe´s framework by Bill´s mind? BTW what about the forgotten question regarding who made the brick?

Some people do not really understand whats the deal with the cat inside the box...

 

[Antonio Alejandro]

On making my own definition

Upchurch,
Are you saying that I should maintain my definition on "something" that I don't see, taste, hear, or feel when it is clear that such a definition is species-specific, even possibly personal?
Also, the word, objective reality gets thrown around a lot here. If I were to use the word, objective, in reference to reality, then I would say that the objective realm is unthinkable and absolute because otherwise as soon as I think about something, it becomes personal.
You can, however, clarify your idea of what is objective.

 

[Antonio Alejandro]

would she be hit by the brick?

CL Larsen
Shirley will get hit by a brick only, and only if someone is perceiving shirley (herself or others) being hit by a brick. If no one is perceiving the impact, the "event" will remain undefined.
If no one is perceiving the impact, that has the concept of "being hit", the "event" remains undefined.

You can imagine what may have happen...but what you imagine is not what is.

 

[Franko]

Call me dense, but I think all these [materialists] seem to refuse to believe that the ["matter "] springs forth from the [mental] processes in the [Mind/Soul].
They believe in [magical “free will” powers] which rides around in our bodies like you drive a Yugo. Seems to me like [pessimistic] wishful thinking that the self [ceases to exist] after death despite the fact that there is no proof or evidence of this.

Anyhoo, Just because the mind interprets the [information] from the [Laws of Physics] into a view or perception of the universe doesn't mean the universe [actually] exist [in the same way the mind/perception does]. The [Laws of Physics] have to exist objectively and outside our [universe] in order to [transmit information and] to produce a perception. And it appears like semantical masturbation to think that things [i.e. “the matter”] exists [without] our perception, that's just silly and [speculative].

And even if it is true that the [Laws of Physics] drives our bodies around. The [Laws of Physics] still have to [control] the [Mind] by [non-physical] means. The universe and the laws of physics which [transmit the information to the Mind] which processes [the information] into a perception still exist and are [purely mental].