North Korean train wreck

[rikzilla]

Re: Re: Re: Re: North Korean train wreck

Don't worry Rik. If "Americans" in general were at the evolutionary level of "American", the US would have ceased to exist by now. Don't you find him an embarrasment?

Yes. He is both vicious and stupid. I'm just vicious.

-z

 

[headscratcher4]

Interjecting a serious note here. Loathsome as American can be – and he can ladle it on – his crass comment is not without some merit.

Proposition: North Korean lives are not worth as much as an American life.

I buy it, but not because American asserts it. It is true because the regime in North Korea proves it everyday, year after year, with policies and a state that de-humanizes people and devalues their lives. Millions died in the most recent years of famine, natural and economic disaster. They didn’t die because the rest of the world didn’t appreciate the disaster; they died because their own government would do nothing to save them. Sure, the rest of the world bears some responsibility when millions die in a famine, but what could they have done more than they did with a government that not only denied the famine was occurring, but was placing blame and establishing cause away from its own failed policies. You can only ship in food if the government lets you, and too often the donor countries had no ability to know that the food was going to those in need and not the military and elites.

In the end, however, 99% of the responsibility for these lives, and the millions lost to natural disaster and political oppression in N. Korea, lies entirely at the foot of the regime. One American life is more valuable, or one British life, or French, because there are systems in place (albeit imperfect) to respect that life. To give that life rights. To give that life a voice. To protect that life with systems and laws and justice. This is alien to North Korea, where there is only one life that matters, that of the Great Leader.

 

[Hutch]

Tragedy aside, I'm wondering if the loss of that much petroluem will induce a new round of global blackmail attempts by the wise and wonderful Kim Il Jong. Every time they're short of something, particularly energy, they wind up rattling sabers.

Hmmmm...a somber and thought-provoking quote from Jocko--will wonders never cease...


Seriously, I don't think two train-loads will be enough to upset the balance--now if it had been a refinery, major storage area, or pipeline I think it would be more likely that your scenario might be played out. Think they might try a distracting technique (gunboats into S. Korea waters again?) to stoke the propaganda machine back home, rather than anything grand.

But the one predictable thing about N. Korea is that they have been unpredictable....I would pay real money to know what was said between Kim and the Chinese leadership in their recent meeetings--but then, so would the CIA and they have deeper pockets...

 

[Rob Lister]

Re: Re: Re: Re: North Korean train wreck

(regarding the poster American: I think he truly believes that American lives are worth way more than pitiful North Koreans.

By what measure do you think he is incorrect? I'm not sure I'd put it at 3000:1 but then again, I haven't looked at their GNP lately. Still, it seems about right.

Edit: 'I'd but it' --> 'I'd put it'

 

[Mr Manifesto]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: North Korean train wreck

By what measure do you think he is incorrect? I'm not sure I'd but it at 3000:1 but then again, I haven't looked at their GNP lately. Still, it seems about right.

I see Suddenly's theory of Virginians is still standing the test of time.

 

[Rob Lister]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: North Korean train wreck

I see Suddenly's theory of Virginians is still standing the test of time.

Good one. Still, how do you calculate the 'worth'? pc-GDP is but one way. Another is the individual's own assessment -- i.e. the amount for which they are personally insured. I'm not sure that's an applicable metric in North Korea. Still, there are others. Pick one.

 

[NightG1]

On a somewhat related note, I've heard that North Korea is having trouble with her train designs -known as 'speedwagons' because a contracting firm (named after its majority share-holders, Michael Elton and David John) has produced a cheaper version using less reliable materials based upon the design by the well-known train company REO. Can anyone provide me with a link to this?

I also heard - through a reliable source - that these trains also had difficulty ride'in the storm out. But that may be a malicious rumor.

 

[Graham]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: North Korean train wreck

Good one. Still, how do you calculate the 'worth'? pc-GDP is but one way. Another is the individual's own assessment -- i.e. the amount for which they are personally insured. I'm not sure that's an applicable metric in North Korea. Still, there are others. Pick one.

Perhaps you should consider the question in the non-monetary sense?

 

[DanishDynamite]

headscratcher4:

Proposition: North Korean lives are not worth as much as an American life.

I buy it, ....

One American life is more valuable, or one British life, or French, because there are systems in place (albeit imperfect) to respect that life.

Although I agree with your view on the system in North Korea, I don't see how that should reflect on the worth of the lives of humans unfortunate enough to live there.

 

[Rob Lister]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: North Korean train wreck

Perhaps you should consider the question in the non-monetary sense?

Or better yet, perhaps YOU should consider that question in non-monetary terms and enlighten me. What metric do you prefer?

I assume you know what a metric is.

 

[Tony]

Although I agree with your view on the system in North Korea, I don't see how that should reflect on the worth of the lives of humans unfortunate enough to live there.

Hey DD, where ya been?


I don't think Scratcher is saying American, Brits ect.. lives have more intrinsic value than N. Koreans, but they have more value based on the value placed on them by their respective governments.

 

[Rob Lister]

Hey DD, where ya been?


I don't think Scratcher is saying American, Brits ect.. lives have more moral value than N. Koreans, but they have more value based on the value placed on them by their respective governments.

What the heck is "more moral value?

If you can't define the value, you sure as hell can't define the moral aspect of it.

 

[headscratcher4]

headscratcher4:Although I agree with your view on the system in North Korea, I don't see how that should reflect on the worth of the lives of humans unfortunate enough to live there.

Intrinsically, physically, spiritually, I too agree that there is no difference in the value of these lives. Their loss is tragic, whether in mass or when viewed as individuals. My point, to the extent I have one, is that whether in North Korea, China, Cambodia, Rowanda, you name it, the world has pretty much stood buy and watched thousand and millions die because of either specific government policies or the worst kind of neglect.

That Americans fret, as do Europeans (I believe) over the loss of one life in a car accident or street murder (though maybe not in Detroit) is simply an acknowledgement that these societies have managed through their political and legal systems to respect individuals more (though, again, imperfectly). And, as I have said, the fact that the death of thousands of Koreans in this situation, like the death of millions of their countrymen already, will be a mere blip is entirely the fault of the regime.

 

[Tony]

What the heck is "more moral value?

If you can't define the value, you sure as hell can't define the moral aspect of it.

Upon reflection I think "moral" might have been the wrong word to use. How about "intrinsic value"?

 

[Rob Lister]

yadda, yadda, bunch of feel-good-◊◊◊◊ yadda

You've said nothing that amounts to anything more than 'yadda'.

 

[Rob Lister]

Upon reflection I think "moral" might have been the wrong word to use. How about "intrinsic value"?

Fine! Now define it in terms of a metric. Clearly there is no difference. Clearly to me at least. Educate me.

 

[Darat]

I have it on good authority. Well made and well maintained Korean anti-imperalist trains did not explode. ...snip...

As humourous as I know you meant this to be I sadly fear that you may prove quite close to how the NK will play this.

 

[rikzilla]

I also heard - through a reliable source - that these trains also had difficulty ride'in the storm out. But that may be a malicious rumor.

Please send all donations for the train victims fund to:

The Great Leader
157 Riverside Avenue.

 

[DanishDynamite]

Tony:

Hey DD, where ya been?

Holiday in Greenland. See the Community forum for pictures.

I don't think Scratcher is saying American, Brits ect.. lives have more intrinsic value than N. Koreans, but they have more value based on the value placed on them by their respective governments.

Are you saying that the "worth" HD4 uses is the worth which the government of the country places on those lives? In that case, I agree.

 

[DanishDynamite]

headscratcher4:

Intrinsically, physically, spiritually, I too agree that there is no difference in the value of these lives. Their loss is tragic, whether in mass or when viewed as individuals. My point, to the extent I have one, is that whether in North Korea, China, Cambodia, Rowanda, you name it, the world has pretty much stood buy and watched thousand and millions die because of either specific government policies or the worst kind of neglect.

I obviously agree with this. I must admit, though, that I have come to expect a better phrasing of the point from you, HD4.

That Americans fret, as do Europeans (I believe) over the loss of one life in a car accident or street murder (though maybe not in Detroit) is simply an acknowledgement that these societies have managed through their political and legal systems to respect individuals more (though, again, imperfectly). And, as I have said, the fact that the death of thousands of Koreans in this situation, like the death of millions of their countrymen already, will be a mere blip is entirely the fault of the regime.

Of course the starvation is the fault of the regime. That doesn't mean squat in my book in regard to the worth of the life of an individual, North Korean or otherwise.