Norad?

[Reheat]

This made me chuckle.

I had not previous read much of Griffin's crap, but I discovered tonight where these idiot (including A-Train) are getting this story about the fighters being delayed and the source of their "stand down" fantasy. Among other errors of fact Griffin states:

The jet fighters at the disposal of NEADS could respond very quickly: According to the US Air Force website, F-15s can go from "scramble order" to 29,000 feet in only 2.5 minutes, after which they can then fly over 1800 miles per hour (140).

http://www.globalresearch.ca/PrintArticle.php?articleId=1478

I suppose if you believe this it's little wonder that 6 minutes is a delay and over 600-650 KTAS is slow!

The 2.5 minutes Griffin references is the performance capability of an F-15 from brake release to about 30,000 MSL NOT from "scramble order" to 29,000 MSL. The initial rate of climb is about 15,000 FPM, so add a little for take off and a slight decreased rate at the higher altitude and 2.5 minutes is close. Griffin conveniently disregards the run to the aircraft, strap-in, engine start, taxi, etc., etc.

The 1800 MPH is a CLEAN F-15, light fuel weight, high altitude, optimum cold conditions. He conveniently disregards the fact that an aircraft launching for an air defense mission has "warts" (missiles) hanging on it and in the case of the F-16 fuel tanks. Those items tend to limit the speed just a bit.

Well, it's good for a laugh anyway.....

 

[Spins]

Yes, and judging by the rest of the article it's that one incorrect assertion (amongst many others) that's seriously effecting his conclusions. For example in the next section called "The Second Version of the Official Story" he goes on to say (emphasis mine)...

NORAD, to be sure, had a built-in answer to that question. It claimed that McGuire had no fighters on alert, so that NEADS had to give the scramble order to Otis Air Force Base in Cape Cod. Critics argued that this claim is probably false, for reasons to be discussed later. They also pointed out that the F-15s, even if they had to come from Otis, might have made it to Manhattan in time to intercept Flight 11, if the scramble order had been given immediately, at 8:40, and then the fighters had taken off immediately. NORAD said, however, that the scramble order was not given until 8:46 and that the F-15s did not get airborne until 8:52 (144-45). It looked to critics, therefore, like the failure was not entirely the FAA's.

Even less plausible, the critics said, was NORAD's claim that NEADS did not have time to prevent the second attack. According to NORAD's timeline, NEADS had been notified about United Airlines Flight 175 at 8:43, 20 minutes before the south tower was struck. The F-15s originally ordered to go after Flight 11 were now to go after Flight 175. According to NORAD, as we saw earlier, the scramble order to Otis was given at 8:46. In light of the military's own statement that F-15s can go from scramble order to 29,000 feet in 2.5 minutes, the F-15s would have been streaking towards Manhattan by 8:49. So they could easily have gotten there before 9:03, when the south tower was struck. NORAD said, however, that it took the fighters six minutes just to get airborne. Critics said that it looked as if at least a slow-down order had been issued.

http://www.globalresearch.ca/PrintArticle.php?articleId=1478

...and then this...

The same problem existed with respect to NORAD's explanation of its failure to protect the Pentagon. NORAD again blamed the FAA, saying that although the FAA knew about the hijacking of American Airlines Flight 77 before 9:00, it did not notify NEADS until 9:24, too late for NEADS to respond.

Again, doing the math showed that this explanation did not work. NORAD claimed that it issued the scramble order immediately, at 9:24. The attack on the Pentagon did not occur until 14 minutes later, at 9:38. That would have been more than enough time for fighters to get there from Andrews Air Force Base, which is only a few miles away. Why, then, did NORAD not prevent the attack?

Part of NORAD's answer was that no fighters were on alert at Andrews, so that NEADS had to give the scramble order to Langley Air Force Base, which is about 130 miles away. Also, it again took the pilots 6 minutes to get airborne, so they did not get away until 9:30.

http://www.globalresearch.ca/PrintArticle.php?articleId=1478

Erm, I think you'll find, as we have discussed on this thread, that getting airborne in 6 minutes after the scramble order was given is very good going considering the target time is less than 15 minutes. It doesn't prove in any way that a "stand-down" or "slow-down" order was given, in fact quite the contrary.

Also why is it he insists on finding the closest AFB to the hijacked planes ultimate crash site, a) he's using a veritable mountain of hindsight doing this, and b) does he really think that EVERY AFB in the US had fighters on stand by on 9/11? There were no fighters on stand by at McGuire's or Andrew's AFB, this isn't a lie it's a fact, you can't claim something is a lie without any evidence.

The guy's crazy, I guarantee he'll never budge from the assertion that F15's should have been airborne, at high altitude, and traveling at 1800mph in 2.5 minutes on 9/11. It's like in his mind he's already verified it as fact so has based all his other theories about a "slow-down" order on it. Talk about a guy making assertions about something he has no clue about whatsoever, may I suggest he sticks to Theology where he'd be able to get away with falsehoods such as this.

 

[funk de fino]

UK Airforce (RAF) Quick Reaction Alert Aircraft have a 10 minute time limit from "scramble" order to be airborne

These people have no idea what they are talking about if they think 6 mins was a delay

Fantasy land Time because they believe people who have never been on QRA or worked on jets or understand what a scramble order is?

especially Mr "Nose undercarriage doors" A-Train

absolutely clueless

 

[sleahead]

Reheat, you might enjoy this post by MikeW about Griffin:

Oh, that speech? It's got one of my personal favourite deceptions, because I never saw it coming. Griffin tells us, in defence of the idea that interceptions were routine and speedy:

But an Air Traffic Control document put out in 1998 warned pilots that any airplanes persisting in unusual behavior "will likely find two [jet fighters] on their tail within 10 or so minutes."52

But the document is actually talking about a different situation:

The U.S. military has their own network of radars looking over the U.S. borders, and out over the ocean (NORAD). They are tied into the FAA computer to be able to get information on incoming flights from overseas, but if they see a target over international waters headed toward the U.S., without flight plan information, they will call on the "shout" line to the appropriate Center sector for an ID. Sector 66 might get a call to ID a radar target, and if 66 has no datablock or other information on it, the military will usually scramble an intercept flight. Essentially always they turn out to be private pilots ("VFR") not talking to anybody, who stray too far outside the boundary, then get picked up on their way back in. But, procedures are procedures, and they will likely find two F-18's on their tail within 10 or so minutes.
http://www.xavius.com/080198.htm

Hmm, Griffin's actually found a document illustrating something he says isn't true, that NORAD primarily looked outwards. Oddly he "forgot" to tell us that.

Better still, while DRG calls this an "Air Traffic Control" document to make it sound official, it's actually just the documentation for a PC simulation game called Air Traffic Control Center. Doesn't carry quite the same weight when you know that, somehow.

 

[Reheat]

UK Airforce (RAF) Quick Reaction Alert Aircraft have a 10 minute time limit from "scramble" order to be airborne

As you already know, there were periods during the "Cold War" where the reaction time was 5 minutes both in the US and UK. Of course, the crews were already strapped into the cockpit for that kind of response time.

Heck, the Lightnings needed that kind of reaction time in order not to run out of gas!

 

[Reheat]

Reheat, you might enjoy this post by MikeW about Griffin:

Interesting and very funny!

He attempts another distortion with the total number of Intercepts by quoting ADIZ intercepts while failing to mention that these were not DOMESTIC Intercepts.

http://www.911truth.org/article.php?story=2006091418303369

He's a lying charlatan, for sure!

 

[AMTMAN]

Except that my suspicions are founded on compelling evidence, which both I and David Ray Griffin have laid out in detail.

Do you have anything to say to counter the arguments we have laid out? No, I don't think you do. Because you haven't done any research and you don't understand the background of what we are discussing. So your only recourse is to stick your head in the sand, shout out that there was no stand-down, and wait upon the support of the ignorant majority who have an emotional desire to agree with you but who, like you, are not qualified to participate in this discussion.

Why don't you admit that you have nothing to add to this debate, because you don't understand the subject. Therefore, you ought to just leave.

It should be obvious to most of us here that your not a very good "researcher" and when people point out the flaws in your "research" you put your head in the sand. When Reheat points out the flaws in your research you say nothing. When I pointed out on this thread < http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=89861&page=3 >
that you were wrong you said nothing. So much for the truth.

 

[funk de fino]

As you already know, there were periods during the "Cold War" where the reaction time was 5 minutes both in the US and UK. Of course, the crews were already strapped into the cockpit for that kind of response time.

Heck, the Lightnings needed that kind of reaction time in order not to run out of gas!

Yes, but we only had this on TACEVALS and other excercises

The standard QRA, 2 X armed F3 Tornados were at 10 mins. 24 hours a day, 365 days a year.

4 aircrew and 7 airmen on the QRA site for a week at a time then swapped out with another crew

Alarm went and you legged it to the already prepped jet and had to have it airborn within 10 mins

Full 2250 drop tanks and full missile load, also chaff and flare

You gotta love a Lightning extreme pull take off

 

[Calcas]

It should be obvious to most of us here that your not a very good "researcher" and when people point out the flaws in your "research" you put your head in the sand. When Reheat points out the flaws in your research you say nothing. When I pointed out on this thread < http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=89861&page=3 >
that you were wrong you said nothing. So much for the truth.

I think that's because he's incapable of original thought. He doesn't "research" anything. Everything he writes is a parrot of his hero DRG. When Griffin is exposed, (which isn't hard to do) he is lost.

 

[Reheat]

You gotta love a Lightning extreme pull take off

Right, but what was more impressive to me were the recoveries in minimum weather conditions. I've done GCA (Radar Talk Down) approaches at RAF Binbrook with Minimum Fuel Lightnings in the pattern during deplorable weather conditions. Minimum fuel to them was emergency fuel for us. Indeed, quite impressive. RAF Radar Talk Down controllers were/are undoubtedly the best in the world!

 

[AMTMAN]

I think that's because he's incapable of original thought. He doesn't "research" anything. Everything he writes is a parrot of his hero DRG. When Griffin is exposed, (which isn't hard to do) he is lost.

What gets me is that he will try and argue with someone like apathoid who knows what he's talking about. Or he will completly ignore Reheat. On the other hand he will accept with anything DRG says without so much as a question. No wonder DRG has an inflated opinion of himself, he has all these people telling him how wonderfull he is.

 

[ref]

No wonder DRG has an inflated opinion of himself, he has all these people telling him how wonderfull he is.

Not us

 

[Reheat]

I'm going to address one more issue that hasn't surfaced in this thread and then leave it be unless there is more excitement.

In spite of the lack of physical evidence, the accusation of a shoot down of UA93 is frequently a CT fantasy. Let's consider it for a minute from the aircraft side of things. Any shoot down would have necessarily required the expenditure of either 1 or more missiles or 20mm ammo (most likely a missile). Those items are strictly accountable. Fighters launching on an Air Defense mission is an exciting event at any NORAD base. It takes more than a few folks to make all of that happen. Particularly, on 9/11 there would have been intense interest on any Fighters upon their return from a mission.

Let's begin with the Intercept. That would have been directed and recorded on tape by both the NORAD Sector and the ARTCC in which it occurred. Certain calls are mandatory during the Intercept and any expenditure of ordnance. The pilot would call when the aircraft radar was locked on and any subsequent firing of ordnance. For example, the shooting pilot would call Fox - 1 upon firing the Vulcan Cannon, Fox - 2 for an IR Missile (AIM - 9), or Fox - 3 for a Radar Missile (AIM-7 or AIM-120). Several folks would have heard those calls and they would have been recorded. Ah, cover up! Where are those tapes?

Upon return for landing several folks in the Control Tower would have glassed the aircraft with binoculars noting anything missing. Then people from Munitions Supply, Munitions Loaders, Crew Chiefs, Maintenance Supervisors, Security Forces to Operations people would have known immediately if anything was missing from any of the aircraft. Missing missiles would be obvious, but missing bullets would also be very evident. At minimum it would have to involve over 20+ people (probably more) from the lowest rank enlisted to at least O6 level. Now, all of those folks were "in on it" and have kept quiet for nearly 6 years now? Sure, all of these folks have remained quiet for the ultimate cover up because ___________.

 

[AMTMAN]

I'm going to address one more issue that hasn't surfaced in this thread and then leave it be unless there is more excitement.

In spite of the lack of physical evidence, the accusation of a shoot down of UA93 is frequently a CT fantasy. Let's consider it for a minute from the aircraft side of things. Any shoot down would have necessarily required the expenditure of either 1 or more missiles or 20mm ammo (most likely a missile). Those items are strictly accountable. Fighters launching on an Air Defense mission is an exciting event at any NORAD base. It takes more than a few folks to make all of that happen. Particularly, on 9/11 there would have been intense interest on any Fighters upon their return from a mission.

Let's begin with the Intercept. That would have been directed and recorded on tape by both the NORAD Sector and the ARTCC in which it occurred. Certain calls are mandatory during the Intercept and any expenditure of ordnance. The pilot would call when the aircraft radar was locked on and any subsequent firing of ordnance. For example, the shooting pilot would call Fox - 1 upon firing the Vulcan Cannon, Fox - 2 for an IR Missile (AIM - 9), or Fox - 3 for a Radar Missile (AIM-7 or AIM-120). Several folks would have heard those calls and they would have been recorded. Ah, cover up! Where are those tapes?

Upon return for landing several folks in the Control Tower would have glassed the aircraft with binoculars noting anything missing. Then people from Munitions Supply, Munitions Loaders, Crew Chiefs, Maintenance Supervisors, Security Forces to Operations people would have known immediately if anything was missing from any of the aircraft. Missing missiles would be obvious, but missing bullets would also be very evident. At minimum it would have to involve over 20+ people (probably more) from the lowest rank enlisted to at least O6 level. Now, all of those folks were "in on it" and have kept quiet for nearly 6 years now? Sure, all of these folks have remained quiet for the ultimate cover up because ___________.

This sort of reminds me of some of the conspiracy theories surrounding TWA 800. There's a school of thought, if you can call it that, which thinks the Navy accidentally shot down TWA 800 by letting a missile get away from the ship. This ignores several factors. The first being the Navy was not chucking SAM's into the air off Long Island. Second if were they ignore the fact that the Standard SM-2 used by the Navy is semi-active. In other words in order for it to home in on a target there has to be a fire control radar illuminating that target. Turn off the fire control radar and the missile goes dumb. And third having been in the Navy I know from firsthand experience that it's impossible to keep a ship full of sailors from running their mouths.

 

[Corsair 115]

The 1800 MPH is a CLEAN F-15, light fuel weight, high altitude, optimum cold conditions. He conveniently disregards the fact that an aircraft launching for an air defense mission has "warts" (missiles) hanging on it and in the case of the F-16 fuel tanks. Those items tend to limit the speed just a bit.

Not only that, but to attain such maximum speed the afterburners are used, and those consume enormous quantities of fuel quite quickly. The F-15 and F-16 don't have supercruise capability (that is, the ability to fly for sustained periods of time faster than Mach 1)...

 

[A-Train]

I suppose if you believe this it's little wonder that 6 minutes is a delay and over 600-650 KTAS is slow!

The 2.5 minutes Griffin references is the performance capability of an F-15 from brake release to about 30,000 MSL NOT from "scramble order" to 29,000 MSL. The initial rate of climb is about 15,000 FPM, so add a little for take off and a slight decreased rate at the higher altitude and 2.5 minutes is close. Griffin conveniently disregards the run to the aircraft, strap-in, engine start, taxi, etc., etc.

First of all, are you saying Griffin is in error, or the Air Force website he is referencing? Did you read the website he is talking about? Or did you just calculate yourself how long it would take an F-15 to get to 29,000?

More importantly, everyone agrees that the pilots were already in the cockpits, on the runway, "straining at the reins," (Michael Bronner's words) when the scramble order came down. The six minute delay occurred after the pilots were in the cockpits ready to go. So indeed, the time frame we are talking about would be from "brake release."

8:40AM

At NEADS, the mission crew commander Major Kevin Nasypany orders his Weapons Team, which controls the fighters, to put the Otis planes on “battle stations.” This means the two “alert” pilots are “jolted into action by a piercing ‘battle horn.’ They run to their jets, climb up, strap in, and do everything they need to do to get ready to fly short of starting the engines.” [Vanity Fair, 8/1/2006] NEADS Commander Robert Marr is also reported as having ordered the Otis pilots to battle stations. [Filson, 2004, pp. 55; 9/11 Commission, 7/24/2004, pp. 20] Duffy confirms, “Halfway to the jets, we got ‘battle stations’… which means to get ready for action.” [Aviation Week and Space Technology, 6/3/2002] The actual scramble order does not come until the pilots are already waiting in the fighters: “We went out, we hopped in the jets and we were ready to go—standby for a scramble order if we were going to get one.” [BBC, 9/1/2002] Duffy continues, “I briefed Nasty on the information I had about the American Airlines Flight. About four-five minutes later, we got the scramble order and took off.” [Aviation Week and Space Technology, 6/3/2002] However, the official notification to scramble these fighters does not come until 8:46 a.m. The six-minute (or more) delay between unofficial and official notification has not been explained.
-Terror Timeline

Why, even if the notification of the military did not occur until 8:38, were fighters not launched until 8:52?
Part of the answer involves the emphasis on the hijacking protocol. Right after receiving the notification of the hijacking at 8:38, Bronner says, NEADS mission crew commander Major Kevin Nasypany, “following standard hijack protocol, prepares to launch two fighters from Otis Air National Guard Base, on Cape Cod, to look for American 11. . . . He orders his Weapons Team . . . to put the Otis planes on ‘battle stations.’ This means that . . . [t]hey . . . do everything they need to do to get ready to fly short of starting the engines.”
Why were the engines not started so that the pilots could take off as soon as possible? The implicit answer to this question, evidently, is that because the hijack protocol was in effect, there was not a great sense of urgency: No use starting the engines until the planes were ready to take off.
Why could they not be scrambled immediately? It certainly was not because the Otis pilots were not ready. Timothy Duffy reports that, after he received the phone call about the hijacking, he contacted the other pilot, Major Daniel Nash, so they were suited up and headed toward their planes when the “battle stations” order came. As this response shows, they were treating the notice as an emergency, which required a rapid response. So what caused the delay? Debunking 9/11 Debunking pp. 46

So Griffin didn't disregard run to the airplane, strap-in, taxi....or anything else.

You just didn't do thorough research.

The 1800 MPH is a CLEAN F-15, light fuel weight, high altitude, optimum cold conditions. He conveniently disregards the fact that an aircraft launching for an air defense mission has "warts" (missiles) hanging on it and in the case of the F-16 fuel tanks. Those items tend to limit the speed just a bit.

A little bit? How much? Have any idea? By the way, the top speed of an F-15 is actually 1875MPH.

Manhattan is 155 miles from Otis. If the F-15s travelled at only, say, 1600MPH, the trip would have taken only 5.8 minutes.

 

[A-Train]

Erm, I think you'll find, as we have discussed on this thread, that getting airborne in 6 minutes after the scramble order was given is very good going considering the target time is less than 15 minutes.

It would not be very good if the pilots were already strapped in and ready to go, as Capt. Timothy Duffy tells us the Otis pilots were.

Reheat, Spins, funk de fino, sleahead, AMTMAN, Calcas, ref......

You guys have all made total fools of yourselves on this issue.

 

[A-Train]

Not only that, but to attain such maximum speed the afterburners are used, and those consume enormous quantities of fuel quite quickly. The F-15 and F-16 don't have supercruise capability (that is, the ability to fly for sustained periods of time faster than Mach 1)...

Sustained periods of time? The flight from Otis to Manhattan is less than six minutes.

 

[Spins]

First of all, are you saying Griffin is in error, or the Air Force website he is referencing? Did you read the website he is talking about? Or did you just calculate yourself how long it would take an F-15 to get to 29,000?

David Ray Griffin is in error because those figures he has quoted are to show off the performance capability of the F15, the plane is already on the runway with the pilot in the chair, has a light fuel load, and more than likely done in optimum cold conditions.

It's akin to the 0-60 or 0-100mph figures for performance cars, most manufacturers will only put the absolute minimum fuel in the car to do the run in order to reduce the weight, some even remove seats and the spare wheel etc to gain extra tenths and thus bragging rights in the press reports.

A little bit? How much? Have any idea? By the way, the top speed of an F-15 is actually 1875MPH.

Manhattan is 155 miles from Otis. If the F-15s travelled at only, say, 1600MPH, the trip would have taken only 5.8 minutes.

Yes he does have an idea and certainly much more of an idea about the capabilities of fighter jets than you or Griffin do, he was a USAF pilot for 21 years...

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=2892231#post2892231

 

[beachnut]

First of all, are you saying Griffin is in error, or the Air Force website he is referencing? Did you read the website he is talking about? Or did you just calculate yourself how long it would take an F-15 to get to 29,000?

More importantly, everyone agrees that the pilots were already in the cockpits, on the runway, "straining at the reins," (Michael Bronner's words) when the scramble order came down. The six minute delay occurred after the pilots were in the cockpits ready to go. So indeed, the time frame we are talking about would be from "brake release."

So Griffin didn't disregard run to the airplane, strap-in, taxi....or anything else.

You just didn't do thorough research.

A little bit? How much? Have any idea? By the way, the top speed of an F-15 is actually 1875MPH.

Manhattan is 155 miles from Otis. If the F-15s travelled at only, say, 1600MPH, the trip would have taken only 5.8 minutes.

Reheat is the only person that is posting who has been close to the speed of 1800 mph in a jet like you are talking about. I would pay attention to him for some practical stuff about flying and alert. I would listen to gumboot also, he is a NORAD expert.

How do you get everything wrong?