Merged No more algebra?

[Wuglife]

Are you also going to argue that car inssurance is worthless? It's the same reasoning.

At some point, yes, more car insurance becomes worthless. Over-insuring a car can be a horrible financial decision. There is a balance to strike between how much coverage versus how big a payment.

You're getting bogged down in the details, and missing the fact that I'm merely using them to illustrate a point: math is USEFUL. It DOES have real-world applications.

Algebra and levels higher than that are not needed for everybody. Many people never encounter problems that require algebra in their employment lives or personal lives.

The fact that most people don't see it isn't an argument against that; it's more a sign of the necessity to teach math differently than anything else. There are wildly divergent situations where knowledge of basic algebra can be of tremendous benifit--IF you understand basic algebra. What you're arguing is that we must take away that tool, because you don't see any use for it right now. I'm arguing that that's because you're not looking.

I partly agree with you, at least--the way mathematics is taught needs work, because as it is now many students can get A's on a test and have not even the slightest idea what they're doing.

True. However, I don't see you using this to argue that because some students have a hard time learning English we should simply abandon teaching that subject.

Are you referring to a student who already speaks another language, or a native English speaker who doesn't comprehensibly speak English?

 

[jj]

Can you actually demonstrate that not understanding algebra allows one to believe in creationism?

Innumeracy is one such path. There are many, and not all innumerate people can be suckered into creationism.

 

[Wuglife]

Innumeracy is one such path. There are many, and not all innumerate people can be suckered into creationism.

Maybe so. I tell you though, I knew a lot of hardline Christian math teachers in my time growing up.

 

[Dinwar]

At some point, yes, more car insurance becomes worthless. Over-insuring a car can be a horrible financial decision. There is a balance to strike between how much coverage versus how big a payment.

But you're not saying "We shouldn't have MUCH algebra"--you're saying "Cut algebra--most people don't use it". Well, most people don't use their car insurance most of the time. By your logic we should cut it.

Algebra and levels higher than that are not needed for everybody. Many people never encounter problems that require algebra in their employment lives or personal lives.

This is where you and I fundamentally disagree. Not with the idea that most people don't encounter problems that require algebra--that's trivially obvious. Where I disagree with you is that I don't consider doing the absolute minimum requirement a good thing. Algebra may not be required, but it certainly makes things easier.

Are you referring to a student who already speaks another language, or a native English speaker who doesn't comprehensibly speak English?

I'm nto sure why it matters, but I was thinking of an English speaker taking an English class.

 

[jj]

Actually, any cashier, service clerk, or auto repairman (to give 3 examples) really does need algebra. I find it very hard to believe that most anyone needs NO understanding of abstracted arithmetic. (I'm assuming we're not talking abstract algebra here.)

 

[I Ratant]

A backhoe operator would benefit from knowing basic algebra. "I have X gallons of fuel. I burn Y gallons/hour. When do I need to refuel?" Algebra is one of those fields that you can get by without, but if you DO understand it it makes life much, much easier, by giving you a way to organize your thoughts.

You don't even need to do it quantitatively. There are equations that I've frankly never solved--I don't NEED to. I can look at the equation, and because I understand algebra I can figure out what it's saying, then use that however I want. Really useful for some of the unsolvable equations in hydrology.

This all illustrates a fundamental flaw in how we teach math. We teach it as if it's a set of rules and systems and equations, and it's NOT. Math, for everyone other than mathematicians, is a language. A very precise language, with far strictre rules than we're used to, but a language none the less. Algebra is the grammer of that language. To say that a person can get by without algebra is like saying they can get by without knowing how to write properly--sure, they CAN, but they're handicapped, and becoming increasingly more so as technology infiltrates our world. Sure, people don't need to use math in their day-to-day lives--but being able to do so makes life much easier. Take, for example, your statement about politicians. Sure, they may still get into office--but they'd have to be more careful about what they lied about. And the timeshare business would go under in a heartbeat.

.
Waaaaaaaaay back when, we schoolkids sang "Johnny Got A Zero".. about a schoolkid that was awful at math, but an ace in the Army Air Force fighting the Japanese.
The song ignored the math any pilot needs, especially one flying over the Pacific Ocean.. the Zero being the plane for the Japanese Navy.
Rollicking good morale song, but somewhat flawed...
.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_tVHxyuj4s8

 

[Wuglife]

But you're not saying "We shouldn't have MUCH algebra"--you're saying "Cut algebra--most people don't use it". Well, most people don't use their car insurance most of the time. By your logic we should cut it.

That's if you consider ~algebra~ to be the analogy to car insurance. You could just as easily consider ~mathematics~ as a whole to be the analogous counterpart to car insurance, or even education as a whole to be comparable to car insurance.

A very small amount of basic algebra may be necessary for most people, I concede. Multiplication and division of exponents has no relevancy to the conscious lives of most people, and some otherwise intelligent people have no aptitude, actual need, nor desire to learn these things.

This is where you and I fundamentally disagree. Not with the idea that most people don't encounter problems that require algebra--that's trivially obvious. Where I disagree with you is that I don't consider doing the absolute minimum requirement a good thing. Algebra may not be required, but it certainly makes things easier.

No, I don't consider doing the absolute minimum necessarily a good thing either. I just think someone's future should not be taken from them just because they are crap at algebra.

I'm good at languages. I adore languages. I don't think a student who really, really sucks at Spanish or French should be unable to finish high school or college just because they can't pass Spanish or French (actually, "passing" is a miserable outcome of taking years of a foreign language--students who take and complete language classes should be able to SPEAK that language). Knowing Spanish and French can be very useful. But I don't think people should HAVE to learn Spanish and French.

I'm nto sure why it matters, but I was thinking of an English speaker taking an English class.

If a native English speaker is terrible at English, that is a serious problem because they probably are suffering from a learning disability. A functional command of a native language occurs almost subconsciously. Even uneducated people who grew up from early childhood in an anglophone country speak comprehensible English unless they have some sort of learning disability.

The understanding of grammar is trickier, but very few anglophones today fully understand English grammar. They are still allowed to finish college and get decent jobs without knowing that "you" is conjugated in the plural because it originally was only used as a plural pronoun.

Of course, I still support English education. Higher levels of English education are vital for any kind of higher level of occupation where a large vocabulary and precise language are absolutely necessary. For those who care about it or who have aptitude for it, it's a great pleasure to speak English eloquently. I'm not against algebra/math education's existence and I'm sorry if I gave that impression. I'm sure for those who love mathematics, algebra can be as profound and enjoyable as grammar is for me. And everyone does need some basic level of mathematical comprehension and skill.

Despite how much I love English though, I'm not going to say that everyone needs to have the most perfect grammar. I favor sentence constructions that don't end in prepositions (whether not doing so is "wrong" or not is a matter of contention), but it really does not matter as far as communication's concerned if a physician says, "put your scrubs on" versus "put on your scrubs". I love Spanish too. I have a friend from Latin America who is studying to be a cardiologist there. When we chat online in Spanish, he often substitutes the letter "s" for "z" in Spanish words, because in Latin America they sound the same (Spanish orthography is based on a word's pronunciation in Spain). It's not correct, it's a pet peeve of mine, and yet I don't think he should be prevented from his cardiology career for writing "conosco" in place of "conozco".

 

[Wuglife]

Actually, any cashier, service clerk, or auto repairman (to give 3 examples) really does need algebra. I find it very hard to believe that most anyone needs NO understanding of abstracted arithmetic. (I'm assuming we're not talking abstract algebra here.)

Maybe a very basic level of very basic algebra is necessary for most people. I (and I'm sure a lot of other people) figured out things like the earlier fuel-per-hour example on my own when I was a little kid, before I ever even took an algebra class.

 

[avh4807]

Thread : No more algebra ?

How can you understand statistics, without a knowledge of algebra ? It is a pitty that so many law school graduates, become the majority of the politicians, who really matter. Most of them cannot even count properly and have no knowledge of statistics at all. But they seem to get away with it, at least with those who know nothing about this important matter either.

 

[Wuglife]

How can you understand statistics, without a knowledge of algebra ? It is a pitty that so many law school graduates, become the majority of the politicians, who really matter. Most of them cannot even count properly and have no knowledge of statistics at all. But they seem to get away with it, at least with those who know nothing about this important matter either.

I understand statistics much, much more easily than I understand all but the most basic algebra.

Everyday problems involving percentages and things like that are like second nature to me.

 

[jt512]

If we stop teaching children how to think, we are lost.

Here in the US, we officially stopped teaching children how to think at the beginning of the George Bush presidency with his "No Child Left Behind" program, which led to teachers answers to mandated standardized test questions rather than teaching the actual subjects the tests were intended to evaluate. The only good thing that came of out of that program was the play on words "No Child's Behind Left" (you know, the Catholic school version).

Jay

 

[Dancing David]

Algebra for many students is a very artificial requirement.

There is no need to use algebra in an average life of a non-scientist/mathematician/mathematics professor.

However making change is a form of algebra.

And the Connected Math curricula, while containing flaws, makes the concepts applicable to everyday life. The use of picture symbols makes the substitution easier.

One of my favorite memories of being an ED teacher's aide was when working on ratios (another algebra concept) and the student decided the ratio he would work on was 'how many girls I go out with and how many I hit', hit in this case meaning sex.

 

[Dancing David]

That problem can be easily solved with arithmetic.

If you have 5 gallons of fuel and you burn 1 gallon per hour, it is obvious that the fuel will last five hours. Nobody needs to learn how to find the slope of a line or how to divide exponents to do this problem.

Regardless that is algebra.

 

[Hazel]

it's a pet peeve of mine, and yet I don't think he should be prevented from his cardiology career for writing "conosco" in place of "conozco".

Or 'agua' instead of 'aqua'?

 

[Careyp74]

I understand statistics much, much more easily than I understand all but the most basic algebra.

Everyday problems involving percentages and things like that are like second nature to me.

Could you give us an example of everyday problems involving percentages that would be in the realm of statistics?

While we are at it, for the sake of the argument, how about a moderately difficult algebra concept that you don't understand.

 

[sgtbaker]

I am sitting in the parkinglot, waiting to take my algebra final. Please don't tell me that's it's all for nothing. I may not ever need to know how many miles more, motorcyclist x went in three hours, compared to motorcyclist y, and figuring out solution sets of two equation may not have anything to do with laundry, but learning how to figure out what you need to know and how to formulate the question is ridiculously common in daily life, and I don't even have a job.

 

[sgtbaker]

I am sitting in the parkinglot, waiting to take my algebra final. Please don't tell me that's it's all for nothing. I may not ever need to know how many miles more, motorcyclist x went in three hours, compared to motorcyclist y, and figuring out solution sets of two equation may not have anything to do with laundry, but learning how to figure out what you need to know and how to formulate the question is ridiculously common in daily life, and I don't even have a job.

Good thing proper use of commas is not a matter of life and death, though...

 

[Dinwar]

I understand statistics much, much more easily than I understand all but the most basic algebra.

Everyday problems involving percentages and things like that are like second nature to me.

So because it works for you, we should therefore build our curriculum around it?

Understand, I'm not a math wiz. Geologists and paleontologists never are--there's something about how our brains work that doesn't get along with math. In grad school a prof. asked "For how many of you was math your lowest grade?" Every student and most of the other professors raised their hands (there were a few that screwed up chemistry, because chemistry professors tend to be....well, Dr. House, since a more direct description would be a bannable offense). It was a struggle for me to grasp the concepts involved.

That said, once I DID grasp the concepts involved, I could see their applicability to pretty much all areas of life. As I said, algebra is to math what grammer is to English. "Basic arithmetic" is the equivalent of spelling. Once you learn to understand the language, you see that the math is everywhere, and you find ways to use it. The fact that you can work around not having this tool ini no way invalidates the utility of that tool.

 

[I Ratant]

So because it works for you, we should therefore build our curriculum around it?

Understand, I'm not a math wiz. Geologists and paleontologists never are--there's something about how our brains work that doesn't get along with math. In grad school a prof. asked "For how many of you was math your lowest grade?" Every student and most of the other professors raised their hands (there were a few that screwed up chemistry, because chemistry professors tend to be....well, Dr. House, since a more direct description would be a bannable offense). It was a struggle for me to grasp the concepts involved.

That said, once I DID grasp the concepts involved, I could see their applicability to pretty much all areas of life. As I said, algebra is to math what grammer is to English. "Basic arithmetic" is the equivalent of spelling. Once you learn to understand the language, you see that the math is everywhere, and you find ways to use it. The fact that you can work around not having this tool ini no way invalidates the utility of that tool.

.
Grammer's in the kitchen making cookies.

 

[Hazel]

.
Grammer's in the kitchen making cookies.

And it isn't only brain chemistry that matches up to certain professions. I once read that people with dyslexia tend to make outstanding architects. I do not know how general that is or if it proves out but I did know one architect and he was indeed dyslexic.