Checkmite
Skepticifimisticalationist
Another Long Post™ from yours truly!
First, the backstory. Last night (or more technically "two nights past", since it's 1 in the morning now), I was returning from a visit to a friend in Huron. Here in Ohio, Huron lies approxamately halfway between the towns of Vermilion and Sandusky, along the lakeshore. Check a map. Anyway, I was driving along a desolate section of SR 6 west of Vermilion when I developed a flat tire. I was getting out the donut and jack and all that, when an old white Suburban which had passed me suddenly stopped and reversed. Coming up next to me, the driver asked if I needed help. I told him I didn't; but since he could see I didn't have much light, he practically insisted on parking his truck with the headlamps on at an angle which illuminated the bad tire. (Yes, yes, I'm coming to the relevant part...bear with me.)
He got out and helped with the frozen lugnuts, and proceeded to chat me up while I was changing the tire. I didn't mind, as there really wasn't much else he could do anyway. He asked where I was from, or going, (Lorain, I told him) and small things like that.
He said to me, "You look familiar...where do you go to church? In Lorain?" It brought me up short for only an instant, and I replied that no, I went to the Unitarian Church in Oberlin...you can all thank Upchurch for that. He asked if that were some sort of nondenominational-type church, to which I replied - in all honesty - "yes". I asked him where he went, and he said "Church on the North Coast, on (route) 58". That was all, as far as church discussion went.
Naturally, being as proficient as I am with cars (bask, bask) I was quickly tightening the lugnuts on the donut. After thanking him, he turned back towards his truck. Halfway there, he stopped and turned around, coming back to me. By way of explanation, he said "The Lord just spoke to my heart. He wants me to give you this..." and he held out a ten-spot. I quickly told him it was all right, that I really didn't need money at that time. He waved it off, "No, I'm sure God wants you to have this." Well, who am I to argue with God? I took it. After exchanging pleasantries, he left. I packed up all the gear and threw the offending tire in the trunk, and continued on back home.
On the entire way home, I was thinking about the encounter. The funny thing is, I was having something of an argument in my head. There was a cynical side, trying to make me angry, and an understanding side, trying to explain things better. The subject was the man's actions.
Perhaps I should explain. I've had experiences with Church on the North Coast before. The place opened up, I think, while I was in high school. It has its own school of course, with a Youth Minister and all that, but being Christian it is not content with what it has and seeks to expand. It had called (culled?) a number of students from my school with whom I was familiar; several of them were real bad types before going to the Church, but afterwards they were practically glowing. I attended, out of curiosity, a meeting of the Bible Club they set up in my school. There already was a sort of liberal "Christians" club, which I didn't belong to but didn't look down upon. This new club, however, was odd. What started out as a "prayer guidance" session with another new kid turned into a ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊ revival, in which they encouraged him to speak in tongues. It was actually quite funny...he didn't know the first thing about "tongues", so they explained that he just needed to "let the sounds happen". Well he let some rather repetitive sounds "happen", but it was clear he wasn't convinced. I ditched the party.
I have an old friend who had a delinquent son who was protected by the Church after he stole the family van and ran off. The van was found later, but the son wasn't...he went to stay with someone, and ended up going to the Church. Acting on a tip, the police went to visit the Church on one of their "Wednesday youth potlucks", hoping to apprehend the kid; they were stalled at the door by the Youth Minister long enough for the kid to "sneak out the back" for all intents and purposes. The cops are not fond of the Church.
I've never been inside the Church, or seen their program. They've got a website here, though it seems to be in very bad shape compared to the last time I looked in on it a few years ago. However, the way its people act reminds me of another church I have had a more direct experience with, The Cornerstone Church in San Antonio. Both churches are not content to let their members be "Sunday-morning Christians", but involve everyone in a sort of "cirriculum". Cornerstone divides its congregations into Prayer Cells (yes, cells...sounds almost cryptic, doesn't it?), and one of the activities at weekly cell meetings involves members standing up and speaking out about whatever "good deeds" they have done that week. This was also a key feature of the new "Bible Club" in my school that was started by the North Coasters, so it's not unreasonable to believe that the North Coast Church has its members do something similar.
All this ran through my mind when playing over the events of night before last. I remembered how the man drove past, then reversed and stopped to help. I remembered how he went to his truck, then stopped and came back to explain the God wanted me to have an extra ten dollars. The cynical side of me kept thinking, "I'm just his weekly "Good Deed", another point to get into heaven, or at the very least to brag to his "cell", or whatever the hell they call them at North Coast, about. I remembered him chatting me up and quickly introducing church talk. I felt preyed upon...a man in need of help is an easy mark, after all.
But then I reconsidered. The guy helped me out, and hadn't pressured me into anything. Why was I getting angry at him? Indeed, Christians' world viewpoint differs vastly from my own. But do such differences warrant anger? As I thought this over, I recalled a thread on this very forum, from a while ago. The thread starter (I think) was in a department store line and noticed the person ahead of him was short some money. He gave the extra money needed, whereupon the cashier (again, I think...IIRC) remarked "You must be Christian". This made the thread starter - and a lot of people who replied - angry. Indeed, I suppose the insinuation is insulting...are only Christians able to be generous? But it seems to me that the cashier probably wasn't consciously thinking of sleighting non-Christians. What makes people think things like this then?
Well, it's obvious that "God" did not talk to my highway benefactor. It was nothing more than his own conscience, urging him to be generous. Deep down inside, this guy was just a really good person. Even if it did take him a moment or two to consider stopping, or a moment or two to consider giving the money. So why the talk about "God"?
The talk about God was the result of what he'd been led to believe his entire life. It is a result of the worst thing - in my opinion - about Christianity, which just so happens to be such a core concept of Christianity that without it, there would be no Christianity. The concept is simply this - that humans are inherently evil. People can, autonomously, do nothing good or pure. Original sin. Most people think Grace is the core concept of Christianity, but it isn't - it's this Evilness, this ipso-facto taint upon us all, simply by virtue of what we are, that makes Grace necessary. We need to be saved, because of this taint. We are already lost in sin. There's only one way out.
This man, along with all Christians, has been led to believe this: that "whenever someone, even if it is myself, has a moment of good conscience, of generosity, or of something resembling altruism, it is because God is speaking to us". God is the only one who can make us do good. We can't do it by ourselves. This person is a truly Good Person, who has been indoctrinated into thinking that his good thoughts are God Speaking. His heart wanted to give me ten dollars, but his brain blamed it on God. I could never be angry at a person such as this.
I could also never be angry at a person like the cashier in the "You must be Christian" incident. The notion of Original Sin is ingrained to such a degree that it subconsciously underlies every thought.
I think it's things like this we fail to consider when we get all hotheaded about Christians "not getting it" when we explain to them about how "wrong" Christianity is. We get pissed off, annoyed, or disgusted when Christians hang onto their faith despite clear evidence they don't have a leg to stand on. Why? The concepts are painfully obvious and simple to grasp - for us. What gives? What gives is that we're not taking into account the fact that for Christians, its not as simple as a set of moral values, probabilities, and methods of thinking. It's not even as simple as Life and Death...it's far, far more important - according to what they've been led to believe.
Sure, many of you remember how you "never bought that God stuff from the beginning"; in fact, I remember reading in a thread that most atheists here became atheists at exceptionally young ages. Well good for you guys - but it should be obvious to you that it was so easy because, as a kid, you had absolutely no stake in Christianity. You hadn't been indoctrinated into the "understanding" that it was eternity that was really at stake...that the whole point of singing those songs and going to that boring place every Sunday was to save your soul.
Is it even a surprise, then, that Christians hang on to their faith even when they're no longer standing on solid ground? Is it even reasonable to expect a "gee, you're right...forget all this God stuff" from someone who's scared out of his mind at the thought of eternal hellfire?
I've not given up on attempting to introduce Christians to the truth through real critical thinking; but I absolutely refuse to get "angry" or "annoyed" when my arguments fall on (at least temporarily) deaf ears next to the prospect of Torture Until The End of Time If He's Wrong.
First, the backstory. Last night (or more technically "two nights past", since it's 1 in the morning now), I was returning from a visit to a friend in Huron. Here in Ohio, Huron lies approxamately halfway between the towns of Vermilion and Sandusky, along the lakeshore. Check a map. Anyway, I was driving along a desolate section of SR 6 west of Vermilion when I developed a flat tire. I was getting out the donut and jack and all that, when an old white Suburban which had passed me suddenly stopped and reversed. Coming up next to me, the driver asked if I needed help. I told him I didn't; but since he could see I didn't have much light, he practically insisted on parking his truck with the headlamps on at an angle which illuminated the bad tire. (Yes, yes, I'm coming to the relevant part...bear with me.)
He got out and helped with the frozen lugnuts, and proceeded to chat me up while I was changing the tire. I didn't mind, as there really wasn't much else he could do anyway. He asked where I was from, or going, (Lorain, I told him) and small things like that.
He said to me, "You look familiar...where do you go to church? In Lorain?" It brought me up short for only an instant, and I replied that no, I went to the Unitarian Church in Oberlin...you can all thank Upchurch for that. He asked if that were some sort of nondenominational-type church, to which I replied - in all honesty - "yes". I asked him where he went, and he said "Church on the North Coast, on (route) 58". That was all, as far as church discussion went.
Naturally, being as proficient as I am with cars (bask, bask) I was quickly tightening the lugnuts on the donut. After thanking him, he turned back towards his truck. Halfway there, he stopped and turned around, coming back to me. By way of explanation, he said "The Lord just spoke to my heart. He wants me to give you this..." and he held out a ten-spot. I quickly told him it was all right, that I really didn't need money at that time. He waved it off, "No, I'm sure God wants you to have this." Well, who am I to argue with God? I took it. After exchanging pleasantries, he left. I packed up all the gear and threw the offending tire in the trunk, and continued on back home.
On the entire way home, I was thinking about the encounter. The funny thing is, I was having something of an argument in my head. There was a cynical side, trying to make me angry, and an understanding side, trying to explain things better. The subject was the man's actions.
Perhaps I should explain. I've had experiences with Church on the North Coast before. The place opened up, I think, while I was in high school. It has its own school of course, with a Youth Minister and all that, but being Christian it is not content with what it has and seeks to expand. It had called (culled?) a number of students from my school with whom I was familiar; several of them were real bad types before going to the Church, but afterwards they were practically glowing. I attended, out of curiosity, a meeting of the Bible Club they set up in my school. There already was a sort of liberal "Christians" club, which I didn't belong to but didn't look down upon. This new club, however, was odd. What started out as a "prayer guidance" session with another new kid turned into a ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊ revival, in which they encouraged him to speak in tongues. It was actually quite funny...he didn't know the first thing about "tongues", so they explained that he just needed to "let the sounds happen". Well he let some rather repetitive sounds "happen", but it was clear he wasn't convinced. I ditched the party.
I have an old friend who had a delinquent son who was protected by the Church after he stole the family van and ran off. The van was found later, but the son wasn't...he went to stay with someone, and ended up going to the Church. Acting on a tip, the police went to visit the Church on one of their "Wednesday youth potlucks", hoping to apprehend the kid; they were stalled at the door by the Youth Minister long enough for the kid to "sneak out the back" for all intents and purposes. The cops are not fond of the Church.
I've never been inside the Church, or seen their program. They've got a website here, though it seems to be in very bad shape compared to the last time I looked in on it a few years ago. However, the way its people act reminds me of another church I have had a more direct experience with, The Cornerstone Church in San Antonio. Both churches are not content to let their members be "Sunday-morning Christians", but involve everyone in a sort of "cirriculum". Cornerstone divides its congregations into Prayer Cells (yes, cells...sounds almost cryptic, doesn't it?), and one of the activities at weekly cell meetings involves members standing up and speaking out about whatever "good deeds" they have done that week. This was also a key feature of the new "Bible Club" in my school that was started by the North Coasters, so it's not unreasonable to believe that the North Coast Church has its members do something similar.
All this ran through my mind when playing over the events of night before last. I remembered how the man drove past, then reversed and stopped to help. I remembered how he went to his truck, then stopped and came back to explain the God wanted me to have an extra ten dollars. The cynical side of me kept thinking, "I'm just his weekly "Good Deed", another point to get into heaven, or at the very least to brag to his "cell", or whatever the hell they call them at North Coast, about. I remembered him chatting me up and quickly introducing church talk. I felt preyed upon...a man in need of help is an easy mark, after all.
But then I reconsidered. The guy helped me out, and hadn't pressured me into anything. Why was I getting angry at him? Indeed, Christians' world viewpoint differs vastly from my own. But do such differences warrant anger? As I thought this over, I recalled a thread on this very forum, from a while ago. The thread starter (I think) was in a department store line and noticed the person ahead of him was short some money. He gave the extra money needed, whereupon the cashier (again, I think...IIRC) remarked "You must be Christian". This made the thread starter - and a lot of people who replied - angry. Indeed, I suppose the insinuation is insulting...are only Christians able to be generous? But it seems to me that the cashier probably wasn't consciously thinking of sleighting non-Christians. What makes people think things like this then?
Well, it's obvious that "God" did not talk to my highway benefactor. It was nothing more than his own conscience, urging him to be generous. Deep down inside, this guy was just a really good person. Even if it did take him a moment or two to consider stopping, or a moment or two to consider giving the money. So why the talk about "God"?
The talk about God was the result of what he'd been led to believe his entire life. It is a result of the worst thing - in my opinion - about Christianity, which just so happens to be such a core concept of Christianity that without it, there would be no Christianity. The concept is simply this - that humans are inherently evil. People can, autonomously, do nothing good or pure. Original sin. Most people think Grace is the core concept of Christianity, but it isn't - it's this Evilness, this ipso-facto taint upon us all, simply by virtue of what we are, that makes Grace necessary. We need to be saved, because of this taint. We are already lost in sin. There's only one way out.
This man, along with all Christians, has been led to believe this: that "whenever someone, even if it is myself, has a moment of good conscience, of generosity, or of something resembling altruism, it is because God is speaking to us". God is the only one who can make us do good. We can't do it by ourselves. This person is a truly Good Person, who has been indoctrinated into thinking that his good thoughts are God Speaking. His heart wanted to give me ten dollars, but his brain blamed it on God. I could never be angry at a person such as this.
I could also never be angry at a person like the cashier in the "You must be Christian" incident. The notion of Original Sin is ingrained to such a degree that it subconsciously underlies every thought.
I think it's things like this we fail to consider when we get all hotheaded about Christians "not getting it" when we explain to them about how "wrong" Christianity is. We get pissed off, annoyed, or disgusted when Christians hang onto their faith despite clear evidence they don't have a leg to stand on. Why? The concepts are painfully obvious and simple to grasp - for us. What gives? What gives is that we're not taking into account the fact that for Christians, its not as simple as a set of moral values, probabilities, and methods of thinking. It's not even as simple as Life and Death...it's far, far more important - according to what they've been led to believe.
Sure, many of you remember how you "never bought that God stuff from the beginning"; in fact, I remember reading in a thread that most atheists here became atheists at exceptionally young ages. Well good for you guys - but it should be obvious to you that it was so easy because, as a kid, you had absolutely no stake in Christianity. You hadn't been indoctrinated into the "understanding" that it was eternity that was really at stake...that the whole point of singing those songs and going to that boring place every Sunday was to save your soul.
Is it even a surprise, then, that Christians hang on to their faith even when they're no longer standing on solid ground? Is it even reasonable to expect a "gee, you're right...forget all this God stuff" from someone who's scared out of his mind at the thought of eternal hellfire?
I've not given up on attempting to introduce Christians to the truth through real critical thinking; but I absolutely refuse to get "angry" or "annoyed" when my arguments fall on (at least temporarily) deaf ears next to the prospect of Torture Until The End of Time If He's Wrong.
