New Orlean's school buses

[Metullus]

I have a great deal of sympathy for those people who could not leave.

I have less sympathy for those who simply would not leave.

People who could leave and did not have put a significant and unnecessary additional load on rescue efforts. The degree to which this has impacted events I cannot as yet judge.

My mother was one of these.

 

[JenJen]

There are a lot of very poor people in NO and I agree - all of my sympathies are with them. It's sad that those school buses could have removed about 70 passengers per bus (from what I've heard) and didn't.

Jen

 

[epepke]

However, it's worth noting that using the busses would have alleviated the problems but not solved them. As many people refuse evacuation even now it becomes obvious that New Orleans had a much deeper problem, perhaps one which defies a full solution. There was a deeply ingrained culture of not leaving in the face of hurricanes.\

This is true.

However, it does not negate the undeniable fact that there were a whole lot of people around the convention center that were waiting for buses that did not come for a number of days. That is just plain bad. That there have been other, different people who refused to leave does not ameliorate this one iota.

 

[Jocko]

Bound to be the riught wing mantra in the coming months.

But of course FEMA knows that there are always a lot of people who won't/CAN'T leave in time.

You can only pull so many people off of so many train tracks before you wonder where the burden or responsibility really lies, Ren old boy. I think the word's getting out that the buck got passed pretty damn easily from that piece of work they call a mayor. No Guilianis to be found in that town, no sir.

And in case you missed it, I was referring to the "won'ts," as was clear from the post I responded to.

 

[Jocko]

So, what, exactly, should FEMA have done differently?

Well, according a great number of otherwise intelligent people on these fora - they're easy to spot so I won't name names - the one thing FEMA should have been doing is...

...operating under the Kerry administration.

Just no pleasing some people, huh?

 

[JenJen]

So, what, exactly, should FEMA have done differently?

There may be a good point to be made that FEMA shouldn't be under homeland security - but I'm not a big fan of DHS. Does DHS substantially change the operation of FEMA? And who really knows what was going on while everybody waited - may have been some valid reasons like ... say ... waiting for the Gov to get off the stick.

I suppose we probably won't know until the investig ... oops ... Senate hearings. Sheesh.

Jen

 

[Linda]

So all those school buses sitting unused....did they have drivers for them, or had the drivers obeyed the evacuation orders and left town? I'm assuming they weren't going to drive themselves.

 

[JenJen]

So all those school buses sitting unused....did they have drivers for them, or had the drivers obeyed the evacuation orders and left town? I'm assuming they weren't going to drive themselves.

I'm pretty sure I'd figure out how to drive a lousy bus if I needed to. In fact, some people did steal buses and drive them out - no word on if they got tickets for not being licensed for that type of vehicle but rumors that they were getting grief for stealing.

Jen

 

[a_unique_person]

I think a part of the problem is where do you evacuate them to? If you are too poor, infirm, etc, to drive, you probably won't have anywhere to stay if you get driven out either, unless the superdomes, shools, etc, are set up outside Loisiana for every hurricane warning evacuation as well. As can be seen now, a million or more people being evacuated every time there is a hurricane is a disaster all of itself.

 

[Mycroft]

I think a part of the problem is where do you evacuate them to? If you are too poor, infirm, etc, to drive, you probably won't have anywhere to stay if you get driven out either, unless the superdomes, shools, etc, are set up outside Loisiana for every hurricane warning evacuation as well. As can be seen now, a million or more people being evacuated every time there is a hurricane is a disaster all of itself.

For those that wanted to leave, anywhere else is a good enough destination.

 

[geni]

I am sorry if this has been discussed before but I found this picture of school buses underwater amazing.
http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/050901/480/flpc21109012015

Between school and transit buses, New Orleans had hundreds (thousands?) of buses. Why were not city buses used to evacuate the city? At the very least, the buses should have been filled with gas and put on high ground to be used after the hurricane.

This was major incompetence on the city's part.

CBL

You have a supply of drivers with class D commercial license or better? On top of that school buses do not handle well in high winds. The suggestion that random citerzens drive the buses would be great if it wasn't for the fact that Jabbar Gibson got lucky. Even people with the right training flip these busses 1 . with the length opf time it was takeing to get out og the city it is questionable they would have made it to saftey before the storm hit.

 

[Manny]

Re: Re: New Orlean's school buses

You have a supply of drivers with class D commercial license or better?

People were driving those buses every morning and again every afternoon. People sufficiently proficient that the residents of New Orleans trusted them with their children 360 times a year plus field trips.

 

[Ed]

Re: Re: New Orlean's school buses

You have a supply of drivers with class D commercial license or better? On top of that school buses do not handle well in high winds. The suggestion that random citerzens drive the buses would be great if it wasn't for the fact that Jabbar Gibson got lucky. Even people with the right training flip these busses 1 . with the length opf time it was takeing to get out og the city it is questionable they would have made it to saftey before the storm hit.

This is like a wierd Monty Python skit. In the face of disaster you would ask if a person has a permit?

 

[Jocko]

Re: Re: New Orlean's school buses

You have a supply of drivers with class D commercial license or better?

They're not tough to drive. Takes all of 15 minutes to get used to the handling, shifting and braking (air brakes rock, btw). I drove several bus types myself while working through college. The licensing was a formality.

On top of that school buses do not handle well in high winds.

They only needed 5-6 hours to get clear of the storm's path, and there was plenty of warning. Would have been a lot easier if it didn't take Bush calling Blanco calling Nagin to actually CALL for an evacuation, natch, but that's neither here nor there.

The suggestion that random citerzens drive the buses would be great if it wasn't for the fact that Jabbar Gibson got lucky. Even people with the right training flip these busses 1 . with the length opf time it was takeing to get out og the city it is questionable they would have made it to saftey before the storm hit.

Yes, much better to squat in your attic as the floodwaters slowly choke the life out of you and your family. Much safer than actually getting in a city vehicle out of town, if any of those vehicles had been made available... which they weren't. The total number of wasted, unused and now ruined vehicles is somewhere in the neighborhood of 350, nears as I can see.

 

[Jocko]

And this just in:

Mayor Nagin has really seized the bull by the horns. He's issued a mandatory evacuation edict, and only 11 days too late.

Nagin said he wanted everyone out of the city "because it's a health risk."

Thank heavens that wiser heads have prevailed.

 

[Cylinder]

State of Louisiana Emergency Operations Plan Supplement 1C - Louisiana Shelter Operations Plan

I think a part of the problem is where do you evacuate them to?

From the Section I Summary:

The overall strategy for dealing with hurricane emergencies is to evacuate as much of the at-risk population as possible from the path of the storm and relocate them to a place of relative safety outside of the projected high water mark of the storm surge flooding and hurricane force winds.

Emphasis is mine. Above sea level would have been a good place to start.

If you are too poor, infirm, etc, to drive, you probably won't have anywhere to stay if you get driven out either...

Quoting Section II - Purpose:

It is the intent of this plan to establish guidelines for the direction, control and coordination for providing shelter, food, and other essential support services for people who have relocated from their normal residences due to the threat posed by a
hurricane along the coast.

Too poor or infirm to drive?

However, school and municipal buses and, where available, specialized vehicles will be used to transport those hurricane evacuees who do not have transportation.

...unless the superdomes, shools, etc, are set up outside Loisiana for every hurricane warning evacuation as well.

They wouldn't have to be evacuated "outside Louisiana." You could be sheltered, as was the plan, further inland and (just for kicks) above sea level. Public infrastructure is supposed to be set up for every hurricane warning (actually every hurricane threat, which comes before the actual NWS warning.) Quoting Section III - Concept of Operations:

When a hurricane enters or forms in the Gulf of Mexico, it is perceived as a threat to the Louisiana coast area. As the danger from the hurricane requires the initiation of emergency actions, the State Office of Emergency Preparedness and each parish in Sector D will activate Emergency Operations Centers (EOCs) and declare a state of emergency. The State and parishes will commence planned emergency operations and coordinate their actions, including activating and maintaining all means of communications. All Shelter Task Force Area Parish EOCs will go to a stand-by status.

A very important point to make in regards to your comment is that the text in bold above is also in bold in the actual plan. The specific duties for shelter and risk parishes can be found in that document.

As can be seen now, a million or more people being evacuated every time there is a hurricane is a disaster all of itself.

You misunderstand the situation. The chaos is a result of sheltering inside the disaster zone. According to the plan, these are refuges - not shelters.

Local facilities, pre-identified for use as last resort refuges, will be available when needed. These facilities are not intended to be shelters, but rather, facilities that are believed to be reasonably safe from the principle damaging effects of hurricanes without the amenities of a shelter.

 

[BPSCG]

Re: And this just in:

Mayor Nagin has really seized the bull by the horns. He's issued a mandatory evacuation edict, and only 11 days too late.

Is this mandatory evacuation order more mandatory than the first mandatory evacuation order?

Me confused...

 

[claimee]

As of Wednesday morning, some 60,000 active duty and National Guard forces were on the ground or in ships in the affected areas, Pentagon spokesman Bryan Whitman said.

Officials stressed, however, that it's the job of the police to force evacuations if and when that time comes.

Police Capt. Marlon Defillo said of the possible forced removal of citizens: "That would be a P.R. nightmare for us. That's an absolute last resort."

In the meantime, "We will continue the search-and-rescue" mission, said Lt. Gen. Joseph Inge, deputy chief of Northern Command, speaking at Peterson Air Force Base in Colorado.

Fox News, September 07, 2005

 

[Tmy]

Ummm where the hell do you bus them too??? theres a hurricane coming, you dont exactly want people riding out the storm in a school bus!

The Superdome did its job, it protected people from the storm.

 

[Cylinder]

Ummm where the hell do you bus them too??? theres a hurricane coming, you dont exactly want people riding out the storm in a school bus!

The Superdome did its job, it protected people from the storm.

According to the evacuation plan:

The overall strategy for dealing with hurricane emergencies is to evacuate as much of the at-risk population as possible from the path of the storm and relocate them to a place of relative safety outside of the projected high water mark of the storm surge flooding and hurricane force winds.

The shelter network had already been mobilized by Gov. Blanco.

The plan required a 72-hour lead time to complete evacuation before the onset of gale force winds:

Using information developed as part of the Southeast Louisiana Hurricane Task Force and other research, the City of New Orleans has established a maximum acceptable hurricane evacuation time standard for a Category 3 storm event of 72 hours. This is based on clearance time or is the time required to clear all vehicles evacuating in response to a hurricane situation from area roadways. Clearance time begins when the first evacuating vehicle enters the road network and ends when the last evacuating vehicle reaches its destination.

Clearance time also includes the time required by evacuees to secure their homes and prepare to leave (mobilization time); the time spent by evacuees traveling along the road network (travel time); and the time spent by evacuees waiting along the road network due to traffic congestion (delay time). Clearance time does not refer to the time a single vehicle spends traveling on the road network. Evacuation notices or orders will be issued during three stages prior to gale force winds making landfall.