New Article on Custer's Last Stand

[WayneK]

Oh, they hated him. With an eye towards politics, he'd written a book that was very critical of his commanding general. There's a reason he was General Custer during the Civil War and Colonel Custer afterwards.

Fun fact, just before the battle, Custer had shaved his head. So, the traditional long blond hair we associate him with was not in evidence that day.





Many now believe Custer dies very, very early in the battle. One native american woman thought she saw two men helping a man with long blond hair late in the battle, but that couldn't have been Custer.

Not according to the accounts of the U.S. Army and the FN warriors. George Custer was surprisingly not mutilated/scalped. The stories of LCol Custer having been horrifically mutilated with an arrow being inserted into his genitals only started to arise well after the battle had passed into myth for both sides. The idea has been put forward that these stories were suppressed by the Army to spare Libby Custer, but given the rather lurid descriptions of the dead made by the press at the time and the corroboration by FN oral accounts that Custer wasn't mutilated would make that story not as believable.

It is possible that some confusion arose between descriptions of LCol George Custer, Maj Tom Custer and Lt Boston Custer, which seems more likely to me.

The descriptions of Custer's mutilations were given to Walter Camp by eyewitnesses. I guess it's possible they were lying and passing on something they'd heard through the grapevine but I don't have any real reason to doubt them.

I don't believe Custer was recognized before, during, or after the battle, I would thus expect his body to suffer the same degree of mutilation as the others. Since the mutilations varied enormously from body to body, it wouldn't surprise me if Custer was spared mutilation or horribly mutilated, or anything in between. He didn't receive any special treatment one way or the other because he wasn't recognized.

I know that there are Indian accounts that claim Custer was recognized and his body was dealt with accordingly. Unfortunately, there are at least a half dozen contradictory accounts that cannot be reconciled. No matter what's the truth, the majority of the Indian accounts concerning Custer are either fabrications or honest mistakes.

Anyway, that's where I stand on this question right now. I know there are counter arguments and I'm open to being convinced to change my mind.

 

[WayneK]

The Little Big Horn was a lousy place for a pitched battle. The Indian encampment was surrounded on the south side by grass tall enough to hide horses, so Reno's force had poor visibility for most of their attack. The survivors all say that Indians seemed to appear from nowhere, this was due to the lack of good sight lines. .

That's a new one. Do you remember where you read it? We have detailed descriptions of Reno's fight from dozens of soldiers and Indians, and I don't recall any mention of tall grass impeding them.

Reno charged down the valley at a gallop and deployed into a skirmish line where the men were kneeling or lying down while they fired. That doesn't seem consistent with tall grass. Nor did any of the men unhorsed during Reno's retreat find refuge in any tall grass. They were quickly killed except for the few that were able to mount another horse or run back to the timber and hide with Herendeen's group.

Reno said he stopped because he saw Indians coming out of a ravine ahead, believed today to be the swale where Otter Creek runs.

 

[WayneK]

If Custer made a good faith effort on recon, it was of one of the most incompetent good faith efforts I have ever read about.
IMHO Custer blindly tried the same tactics that had worked for him before...the Washista for instance....not realising there were a hell of a lot more Indians then before.

Custer's failure to recon might be an interesting question to examine in more depth if anyone else is interested. I'll start by saying that it's difficult to see what more could have been done given the circumstances.

Once his presence had been discovered by the Indians, I think his only reasonable choice was to advance as rapidly as possible and hope that he could strike a blow before the Indians scattered. That's what he did. The fact that he had to make this decision while still some 15 miles from the village led to a series of issues that contributed to the defeat.

Counter-arguments?

 

[Loss Leader]

That's a new one. Do you remember where you read it? We have detailed descriptions of Reno's fight from dozens of soldiers and Indians, and I don't recall any mention of tall grass impeding them..

My understanding is that the terrain was (and remains today) deceptive. From a high point, it looks like one can see out onto pretty flat undulating hills. However, the terrain hides ravines, carve-outs, and soft sand cliffs that make it easy for someone to sneak up on a position undetected.

Of course, if Custer hadn't divided his forces, actually used his scouts for recon, and had fought a head-on battle rather than trying to trap the women and children, he might have been able to overcome this.

 

[Axxman300]

Custer's body was not mutilated.

They had stripped him and jammed sewing needles into his ears to help him listen in the next world.

 

[WayneK]

My understanding is that the terrain was (and remains today) deceptive. From a high point, it looks like one can see out onto pretty flat undulating hills. However, the terrain hides ravines, carve-outs, and soft sand cliffs that make it easy for someone to sneak up on a position undetected.

Of course, if Custer hadn't divided his forces, actually used his scouts for recon, and had fought a head-on battle rather than trying to trap the women and children, he might have been able to overcome this.

No one sneaked up on Reno's position undetected. He was on the flat valley floor. There were no land forms that allowed them to sneak up on him. They did come through the woods by the river and threatened the horses.

When you say "...if Custer hadn't divided his forces...", do you mean that Custer should have advanced with the pack train at a maximum 2 to 3 miles an hour for 15 miles while the Indians escaped? No competent officer would do that. He had to advance rapidly, which meant that the pack train had to trail behind. The pack train had to be protected, which meant a whole company had to be detailed to escort it, plus 5-6 men from each of the other companies. This meant his force was weakened by 20% before even starting out, and there was nothing he could do about it under the circumstances.

It's very easy to say "oh, he should have done a recon". I've invited anyone to explain to me how this could have been done in detail given the circumstances on the morning of June 25.

 

[erwinl]

No one sneaked up on Reno's position undetected. He was on the flat valley floor. There were no land forms that allowed them to sneak up on him. They did come through the woods by the river and threatened the horses.

When you say "...if Custer hadn't divided his forces...", do you mean that Custer should have advanced with the pack train at a maximum 2 to 3 miles an hour for 15 miles while the Indians escaped? No competent officer would do that. He had to advance rapidly, which meant that the pack train had to trail behind. The pack train had to be protected, which meant a whole company had to be detailed to escort it, plus 5-6 men from each of the other companies. This meant his force was weakened by 20% before even starting out, and there was nothing he could do about it under the circumstances.

It's very easy to say "oh, he should have done a recon". I've invited anyone to explain to me how this could have been done in detail given the circumstances on the morning of June 25.

That is a reasonable split. But that is not what Custer did. He divided his forces much more than that.

And yes he should have done a recon. The whole purpose of a recon is to stack the coming battle into your favour as much as is possible. Just going for it and hoping it will turn out like the last time is not that.

 

[Border Reiver]

No one sneaked up on Reno's position undetected. He was on the flat valley floor. There were no land forms that allowed them to sneak up on him. They did come through the woods by the river and threatened the horses.

When you say "...if Custer hadn't divided his forces...", do you mean that Custer should have advanced with the pack train at a maximum 2 to 3 miles an hour for 15 miles while the Indians escaped? No competent officer would do that. He had to advance rapidly, which meant that the pack train had to trail behind. The pack train had to be protected, which meant a whole company had to be detailed to escort it, plus 5-6 men from each of the other companies. This meant his force was weakened by 20% before even starting out, and there was nothing he could do about it under the circumstances.

I am not referring to sound decision to leave a protection force with his supply convoy. I am referring to his LCol Custer's decision to further divide his reduced command into three parts and send two of them off without having a firm idea of the size and location of the enemy forces.

He also had no reserve force that could be committed to either reinforce success, or to extract forces in trouble, as each of his three groups had orders to carry out specific missions in the overall battle.

It's very easy to say "oh, he should have done a recon". I've invited anyone to explain to me how this could have been done in detail given the circumstances on the morning of June 25.

Knowing the disposition of the enemy forces is crucial in battle. Knowing when you are facing a foe with vastly superior numbers, parity in weapons tech (although you could argue that the FN with Henry and other repeating rifles actually had better equipment than the poor sods with the Springfields), parity in tactical doctrine and a limited ability to effect reinforcement means that you can make a better decision than - "you go right, you go left, I'll go up the middle and we'll beat them".

Old military adage - "Time spent on recce is seldom wasted."

 

[WayneK]

I've asked a couple of times for someone to explain in detail how he could have done a recon but all I'm hearing is "he should have done a recon."

The village was first seen from the Crow's Nest. No recon could have been done before that because the location of the village was unknown. Very soon after the village was located, Custer's command was discovered by a band of Indians, who could be expected to carry word to the village (the fact that they didn't, could not have been known by Custer).

As soon as his presence had been discovered, Custer ordered a rapid advance on the village, traveling at a trot with some fast walking. They were going maximum speed, therefore there was no time for scouts to go ahead 15 miles, scout the village, and return. By the time they got to the village area, Custer would have been immediately behind them.

Let me break it down by simple points.

1) Once his presence was discovered he could not wait for a recon to be conducted because the village would be scattering.

2) Once he started his rapid advance, there was no time for scouts to go ahead and conduct a recon because Custer and Reno's battalion were advancing right behind them.

3) And for those who bemoan that Custer had no idea what he was getting into, remember that the village had been located from the Crow's Nest. He knew it was an enormous village and knew where it was located, though he didn't know the exact extent. For the terrain around the village, he had six Crow scouts and an interpreter who were familiar with the area.

I'd be interested in hearing anyone's counter-arguments but all I've heard so far is the repetition of adages.

 

[Trebuchet]

I've read somewhere that Custer was nearsighted, hence poor distance vision. The Crow scouts told him it was a really big village but he couldn't see it well enough and didn't believe them. Can anyone verify, at least about Custer's vision?

 

[WayneK]

I've read somewhere that Custer was nearsighted, hence poor distance vision. The Crow scouts told him it was a really big village but he couldn't see it well enough and didn't believe them. Can anyone verify, at least about Custer's vision?

I don't know about Custer's vision but it had no bearing on what happened. At dawn on the 25th the Crow scouts were at the Crow's nest with Lt Varnum, scout Charley Reynolds, and a few others. Custer was not there. The village was completely screened by the bluffs on the east side of the Little Big Horn but they could see clear evidence of its location. To the south side in the valley they could see the movement of the large pony herd, especially the white horses that were reflecting the rising sun. They could also see smoke rising from the village.

Varnum was unable to see what the scouts saw. His eyes weren't good enough and he didn't have the practiced ability of the Crows to distinguish objects at an extreme distance. Charley Reynolds had field glasses. He surveyed the valley and nodded agreement that there was a village there.

Later, Custer rode the 8 miles to the Crow's Nest to look for himself, possibly because Varnum was unable to personally confirm the village. By that time, the rising sun made it more difficult to see smoke from the campfires but after looking through the field glasses, Custer, too, was convinced.

Benteen later claimed that Custer didn't believe there was a village in the Little Big Horn, but every action he took from this point forward was clearly based on his belief in the village location.

I've been at the Crow's Nest. It's a LONG ways to the Little Big Horn and extremely difficult to make out anything other than a blur of green and brown.

 

[Sherman Bay]

All I know about the battle is what I read in Little Big Man, to wit: The Human Beings won the battle, but lost the war.

 

[Trebuchet]

I don't know about Custer's vision but it had no bearing on what happened. At dawn on the 25th the Crow scouts were at the Crow's nest with Lt Varnum, scout Charley Reynolds, and a few others. Custer was not there. The village was completely screened by the bluffs on the east side of the Little Big Horn but they could see clear evidence of its location. To the south side in the valley they could see the movement of the large pony herd, especially the white horses that were reflecting the rising sun. They could also see smoke rising from the village.

Varnum was unable to see what the scouts saw. His eyes weren't good enough and he didn't have the practiced ability of the Crows to distinguish objects at an extreme distance. Charley Reynolds had field glasses. He surveyed the valley and nodded agreement that there was a village there.

Later, Custer rode the 8 miles to the Crow's Nest to look for himself, possibly because Varnum was unable to personally confirm the village. By that time, the rising sun made it more difficult to see smoke from the campfires but after looking through the field glasses, Custer, too, was convinced.

Benteen later claimed that Custer didn't believe there was a village in the Little Big Horn, but every action he took from this point forward was clearly based on his belief in the village location.

I've been at the Crow's Nest. It's a LONG ways to the Little Big Horn and extremely difficult to make out anything other than a blur of green and brown.

Thanks. What I was getting at, however, was that Custer knew there was a village but refused to believe what he was told about its size. He'd previously gotten his jollies by attacking poorly defended villages and figured to do it again.

(I'm actually related to him, BTW.)

 

[WayneK]

Thanks. What I was getting at, however, was that Custer knew there was a village but refused to believe what he was told about its size. He'd previously gotten his jollies by attacking poorly defended villages and figured to do it again.

(I'm actually related to him, BTW.)

They had been following the Indian trail up the Rosebud and observing the large camping sites (400+ tipi's) with evidence of more and more bands joining them as the trail turned west and crossed over the divide to the Little Big Horn valley.

Everyone knew it was going to be a big village. Custer never revealed what he thought about exact numbers. I believe, if memory serves, that they had been told to expect up to 800 or more warriors. Some of his scouts told him to expect 1,000-2,000 warriors. The actual numbers are still debated but I believe that 1,000-1,500 is in the ballpark. He had no way of knowing that these same Indians had fought Crook's 1,000 men to a standstill a week earlier on the upper reaches of the Rosebud.

Yes, the scouts claimed afterwards that they repeatedly warned Custer of what he was about to face. Custer, in his usual manner, responded with some curt, joking remark or admonished them for losing their nerve.

I think the numbers really didn't matter to Custer. He believed that the 7th Cavalry would handle whatever they faced. This was the first time the 7th Cavalry had ever operated with all 12 companies present. 650 men was an enormous number for a soldier operation in the Indian wars. The 7th Cavalry could take care of itself and I think he felt the same away about the battalion assignments he's been so criticized for.

There was a belief that a large village could be scattered and defeated just as easily as a small one if could be taken by surprise and attacked from several directions at once. That was the aim at the Little Big Horn but it didn't come off for a variety of reasons that make for endless debate.

I guess congratulations on being related to him (if you feel that way!). I've been to his home in Monroe, Michigan and also to his birthplace here in Ohio. I'm not pro- or anti-Custer. I do find it a little grating when he's dismissed as some bumbling fool or elevated as some godlike officer who never made a mistake. He was a fascinating character.

 

[Border Reiver]

I've asked a couple of times for someone to explain in detail how he could have done a recon but all I'm hearing is "he should have done a recon."

He should have done a recon because:

A. He was unaware of the size of the village; and
B. He was unaware of the number of FN warriors at the village.

The village was first seen from the Crow's Nest.

Actually all the Crow scouts saw was the pony herd. This gave them an approximate location, but not actual size. The Crow's Nest was about 14 miles from the village, too far away to get accurate Intel.

No recon could have been done before that because the location of the village was unknown. Very soon after the village was located, Custer's command was discovered by a band of Indians, who could be expected to carry word to the village (the fact that they didn't, could not have been known by Custer).

Same excuse that I've heard after many failed fighting patrols.

Here's the thing - militaries do recon to locate and fix the enemy. Finding out who's out there, where they are and what they're doing is the whole point of the exercise. The other reason to put out scouts is to intercept enemy scouts.

As soon as his presence had been discovered, Custer ordered a rapid advance on the village, traveling at a trot with some fast walking. They were going maximum speed, therefore there was no time for scouts to go ahead 15 miles, scout the village, and return. By the time they got to the village area, Custer would have been immediately behind them.

When you don't know the strength or disposition of the enemy, rushing ahead full speed to engage the enemy is a recipe for disaster.

Let me break it down by simple points.

1) Once his presence was discovered he could not wait for a recon to be conducted because the village would be scattering.

Rushing into battle, without an appreciation of the enemy and terrain is a recipe for disaster.

As it was Custer engaged the enemy, lost and the village scattered anyways.

2) Once he started his rapid advance, there was no time for scouts to go ahead and conduct a recon because Custer and Reno's battalion were advancing right behind them.

Again, for the benefit of the studio audience, the outcome of rushing into battle without conducting some form of recce is generally what happened to Custer.

3) And for those who bemoan that Custer had no idea what he was getting into, remember that the village had been located from the Crow's Nest. He knew it was an enormous village and knew where it was located, though he didn't know the exact extent. For the terrain around the village, he had six Crow scouts and an interpreter who were familiar with the area.

Custer didn't trust his Crow scouts. When they came back with reports of a large pony herd Custer sent them out again with an officer (who didn't see anything). When Custer decided to attack the scouts were dismissed.

Hard to get Intel from people who aren't there.

I'd be interested in hearing anyone's counter-arguments but all I've heard so far is the repetition of adages.

There is a reason that Little Big Horn is used as an example of how not to conduct a battle.

 

[WayneK]

Border Reiver,

Hindsight is a wonderful thing. I agree with a good part of what you said for conventional armies positioning themselves for a battle. The Indians were not a conventional army. They were raiders mounted on swift horses who generally avoided pitched battles. What you propose was possible when the village could be approached at night. That was Custer's plan at the Little Big Horn. It went out the window. and necessarily so, once his presence was discovered.

If Custer had sat still all day while scouts "reconned" the village he would have had a very uncomfortable time explaining to his superiors while he sat idly by while the Indians ran in all directions.

Read my description of the Crow's Nest events for what happened. Four of the Crows rode with Custer all the way to Medicine Tail Coulee where they were released by Bouyer, having done their jobs as scouts. Two went with Reno into battle and one was badly wounded in the fight. They were not distrusted by Custer nor dismissed by him.

[edited to tone down some remarks]

 

[WayneK]

And I'm still waiting for a step-by-step explanation of how the village could have be reconned on the morning of June 25 without the Indians escaping. No one has even attempted to do that other than to mindlesly repeat "he should have reconned".

 

[Border Reiver]

Border Reiver,

Hindsight is a wonderful thing. I agree with a good part of what you said for conventional armies positioning themselves for a battle. The Indians were not a conventional army. They were raiders mounted on swift horses who generally avoided pitched battles. What you propose was possible when the village could be approached at night. That was Custer's plan at the Little Big Horn. It went out the window. and necessarily so, once his presence was discovered.

Sorry, counterinsurgency tactics still revolve around carrying out reconnaisance to locate, and fix enemy forces. the principles of warfare do not change because you are not facing a "near peer" foe. Charging straight at where you think the enemy is is a recipe for disaster.

Custer threw the book out the window because he was overconfident, and overly agressive.

If Custer had sat still all day while scouts "reconned" the village he would have had a very uncomfortable time explaining to his superiors while he sat idly by while the Indians ran in all directions.

You seem to be under the impression that Custer could either advance to contact, OR conduct a reconnaisance - it is entirely possible to multi-task. What it would have taken is a slower advance to the Little Big Horn so that advance scouts could determine:

a. The location and size of the camp;
b. Approximate numbers;
c. Enemy activity; and
d. Terrain analysis.

Read my description of the Crow's Nest events for what happened. Four of the Crows rode with Custer all the way to Medicine Tail Coulee where they were released by Bouyer, having done their jobs as scouts. Two went with Reno into battle and one was badly wounded in the fight. They were not distrusted by Custer nor dismissed by him.

[edited to tone down some remarks]

I have read the description of the Crow's Nest events - the camp is not visible from the Crow's Nest. All the scouts saw was part of the pony herd and smoke. From that they could deduce that there was a village there, but not size.

 

[Andy_Ross]

And it still doesn't get round to explaining why he split his forces

 

[anglolawyer]

For those who are interested in Custer's Last Stand, last week I web-published an article on the subject titled "General Custer and the Little Big Horn: Setting the Record Straight." Here's the link:

http://miketgriffith.com/files/custerrecord.htm

My article argues that Custer's two subordinate commanders--Major Reno and Captain Benteen--were largely responsible for his defeat, and that much or most of Custer's command could have been saved if Reno and Benteen had done their duty.

My Custer webpage can be found here:

http://miketgriffith.com/files/custer.htm

That was an interesting read, thanks. I don't know enough about the battle to engage in informed discussion, although I have read a little about it. You answered my only question right at the end when you recorded the suggestion that Reno and Benteen's battalions might have got to Custer in time to make a difference (just like in the westerns, when the cavalry comes riding over the hill to dave the day).

Was there not some unfortunate history between Reno, Benteen and Custer? Do you think that relevant to what occurred?