Need Advice!!

[Ruby]

Hi,

As some of you know, I left my church recently under upsetting circumstances read here to see http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=22658.

I've had some communication with a friend who still attends my old church, but it has not been easy. I admitted to her why I left, but tried to keep our friendship intact.

Today I ran into her at Target and she gave me a sort of warning that her husband (who is a lay Pastor) was upset by my emails to her and had sent me an email. I looked her right in the face and said "fine" and told her that he'd just have to forgive me if he was upset with me. She changed the subject fast. You must understand, I have always been a mouse and would never have looked her in the eye and spoke firmly. I would have shook and felt fear and guilt in the past, and probably said nothing. Not now...not after aLL THE HELL i'VE GONE THROUGH!!!


Anyhow, this lay-Pastor who sent me an email is the typical fundamental who buys everything that is taught to him and rarely, if ever, studies for himself. That is NO exaggeration. And yet, our Pastor put him in charge of many things at our church...much to our dismay..and the dismay of others.

I know it's poor etiquette to post someone's email like this.....please forgive me in posting it. I really would like advice and input on how to respond.

"Karen (my real name)

This is Scott. I want to know who these people are that are saying there is a secret group of elders at Living Stones. Who is the individual that was asked to join the "group"? Don't tell me that you can't give out their names......unless they are lying and don't want to be reviled (he meant to say revealed). Your conclusion of who fit the criteria of an elder was inaccurate.
I have listened to the tapes from both messages many times and Pastor is very explanatory in what he is saying. It would only be offensive to those who are not already participating in the things he has spoken of. "

The things to point out is that my criteria of what an Elder should be came straight out of the bible that he claims to believe in. I feel that if I reveal the person who was told that the group of elders was a "secret group", I will be gossiping worse than I have probably already done, but moreover, I will betray someone. This person is not the only one who was told that there was a group of secret elders. Yes, Pastor was very explanatory. He made it clear that to be a member of the church you had to pay tithes, be involved in ministries, and show up to every service. Not to mention looking at the Pastor not as a man....and never asking him questions.

The accusation to me by this email is that I am not right in my position to leave. I am just someone who is offended because I am not doing the things the Pastor is promoting. That makes me a very bad Christian!! AHHHHH!!!!

I AM SO F%%KING sick of fundamental Christians!!!!!

Sorry folks!!!

 

[Yahweh]

Perhaps you should start your own church and teach Christianity the way it was meant to be taught. No secret elders, no worry of bizarre cultist behavior, good ol' fashion readin' the bible... you could call your church the Church of Ruby...

"Karen (my real name)

This is Scott. I want to know who these people are that are saying there is a secret group of elders at Living Stones. Who is the individual that was asked to join the "group"? Don't tell me that you can't give out their names......unless they are lying and don't want to be reviled (he meant to say revealed). Your conclusion of who fit the criteria of an elder was inaccurate.
I have listened to the tapes from both messages many times and Pastor is very explanatory in what he is saying. It would only be offensive to those who are not already participating in the things he has spoken of. "

I honestly dont know how to respond to this email without being very sarcastic and angry. Tell him that regardless of who gave you the information about Secret Elders, it doesnt take away from that fact that any kind of elders go against what Christianity is all about. Instead it turns it into a secret club where elitists can attempt enlist other members... thats not how the bible is meant to be taught. I dont exactly know where I am getting at but I hope I have been of at least a little help. It sounds like the preist is trying to be Mr. Passive Assertive... he doesnt seem like a good pastor (or priest... I dont know if there is a difference). He is obviously not worth your time to explain your dicisions. If at all, tell him that he should not judge your reasons for leaving the church, he should accept the fact you left because you didnt like the way he ran it.

 

[NoZed Avenger]

For what its worth, Ruby, (if you choose to reply at all), I would advise you to stick to a simple, non-aggressive statement that your path and that of the church have simply parted ways.

I don't think naming anyone or arguing any points that he raises or makes implications about will do any good, and might cause some trouble for you and/or your friends still at the church.

Stay nice, reasonable, and respectful, but stone-wall the questions and say that you and your family feel that you need to be following a different path. Wish him luck and health, etc.

These are offerred somewhat hesitantly -- no one knows the situation and people involved as well as you do. You are therefore in a far better position to judge the situation and act appropriately.

[psychic mode] I think that you have a "gut" feeling on how to handle this, but want to see if anyone either confirms it or shoots it down. You know, deep down, that the action you are contemplating is the right one, but you hesitate because it may lead to conflict. You are hoping to avoid the problems, but deep down already know the "right" thing to do. Trust your gut

The energies are withdrawing now. [/end psychic mode]


Luck.

NA

 

[Max560]

I see no value in escalating the conflict. I agree that you should probably stick with the diverging path explanation, and not elaborate further. No other explanation is required.

I find it interesting that an organization can claim to represent a loving God, treat their congregation like crap, then get all snippy when someone decides to leave.

I would suggest expanding your social network outside of current members of the current congregation. I stopped going to church years ago, and find that life has been just fine.

 

[Ruby]

Perhaps you should start your own church and teach Christianity the way it was meant to be taught. No secret elders, no worry of bizarre cultist behavior, good ol' fashion readin' the bible... you could call your church the Church of Ruby...

I honestly dont know how to respond to this email without being very sarcastic and angry. Tell him that regardless of who gave you the information about Secret Elders, it doesnt take away from that fact that any kind of elders go against what Christianity is all about. Instead it turns it into a secret club where elitists can attempt enlist other members... thats not how the bible is meant to be taught. I dont exactly know where I am getting at but I hope I have been of at least a little help. It sounds like the preist is trying to be Mr. Passive Assertive... he doesnt seem like a good pastor (or priest... I dont know if there is a difference). He is obviously not worth your time to explain your dicisions. If at all, tell him that he should not judge your reasons for leaving the church, he should accept the fact you left because you didnt like the way he ran it.

Thanks that's good advice. The person who sent me the email is an ordained minister in our church.....sometimes called a lay-pastor, but he is not "the" Pastor. He does not really know the bible very well and fumbles terribly through any message he is allowed to teach. He is also a very cruel and harsh parent to his two step-children....and that has always disturbed me. He is what we call here in Texas.....a good ole boy.....very cowboyish, although does not own a ranch, have cattle or go out roping or rounding up anything. My hubby clashed with him terribly while we were in church. My hubby did try to be friends, but my hubby's intellectual mind baffled him (the fumbling minister) completely. He began to drive my hubby up a wall.

 

[Ruby]

For what its worth, Ruby, (if you choose to reply at all), I would advise you to stick to a simple, non-aggressive statement that your path and that of the church have simply parted ways.

I don't think naming anyone or arguing any points that he raises or makes implications about will do any good, and might cause some trouble for you and/or your friends still at the church.

Stay nice, reasonable, and respectful, but stone-wall the questions and say that you and your family feel that you need to be following a different path. Wish him luck and health, etc.

These are offerred somewhat hesitantly -- no one knows the situation and people involved as well as you do. You are therefore in a far better position to judge the situation and act appropriately.

[psychic mode] I think that you have a "gut" feeling on how to handle this, but want to see if anyone either confirms it or shoots it down. You know, deep down, that the action you are contemplating is the right one, but you hesitate because it may lead to conflict. You are hoping to avoid the problems, but deep down already know the "right" thing to do. Trust your gut

The energies are withdrawing now. [/end psychic mode]


Luck.

NA

In my heart, I want to thrash him. I want to let him have it and tell him off. But I know that is not the right way to respond. I am just so tired of playing it safe and being so meek and reserved.

 

[Ruby]

I see no value in escalating the conflict. I agree that you should probably stick with the diverging path explanation, and not elaborate further. No other explanation is required.

I find it interesting that an organization can claim to represent a loving God, treat their congregation like crap, then get all snippy when someone decides to leave.

I would suggest expanding your social network outside of current members of the current congregation. I stopped going to church years ago, and find that life has been just fine.

I can see that it's going to be impossible to keep friends that still attend my former church. I need to cut all ties and just be civil if we run into each other. It's the safest way....unfortunately!

 

[BillyJoe]

You must understand, I have always been a mouse

Ruby, there is nothing wrong with being a mouse.

I would definitely reply - not to argue his point of view but to put your own view.
But I would not continue to correspond with him if he continues to harass you.

And, Ruby, when you reply......use a big pencil.

regards,
BillyJoe

 

[Nova Land]

The accusation to me by this email is that I am not right in my position to leave.

Looks like you've already gotten lots of good advice. Nozed and Max both already said the main things I would have said (and did it better and shorter than I'd have been able). (And, a note to BillyJoe: my cat strongly agrees with you that there is nothing wrong with being a mouse, and said she would love to meet you in the flesh to discuss this more, perhaps over dinner...)
One thing that grabbed my eye in your post was the line quoted above. It sounds to me like your friend's husband is turning the matter upside-down.

If I read it correctly, he seems to be taking the position that, unless you can prove to him you are right, you have no right to leave. That's a neat way to control people! It should be just the reverse: unless he (or others) can disprove the things that make you uncomfortable, you have every right to leave!

Expecting you to stay in a church because he doesn't share your feelings is silly. If the positions were reversed, would he be willilng to leave the church if he couldn't prove to someone else that he was right?

It's your life, not his.

 

[justsaygnosis]

The part that your former pastor wishes to be looked on as more than a man jumps at me.
There are plenty of highly educated and talented people in this world who don't attempt to extend their 'authority' beyond their specialty.
Doctors let the mechanic fix the car and the electrician wire the house even though they're not going to take medical advice from either.
Ministers are granted broad reaching authority on the basis they're god's agents and representatives. When they go off on tangents regulating all the aspects of existence they feel they're qualified to, regardless of their knowledge and experience in those areas they're over the lines, PERIOD!!!
From what yu've posted I think you've come to terms with this in many ways. It's not a great deal different than when a person begins to find out their parents are far less of gods and way more regular people that disillusionment and insecurity sets in. As adults we can appreciate and value the contributions and difficulties of parents from an adult perspective and respect parents MORE because they weren't supernaturally endowed. A minister who claims a supernatural seal of authority and ceases to identify themself as a fellow sojourner on life's journey is bad news.
Use as much tact and diplomacy as you can muster so as to maintain the friendship of the people you value from that community but if they atempt to browbeat you into a penitent and guilt-filled return to their flock you'll need to wash your hands of them.

 

[Roadtoad]

I have a truck to go clean today, so I'm going to have to either PM you my response, or write one later. But, Ruby, I've gotten nearly the EXACT same letter from Pastors in the past.

My advice? Take that letter and burn it. Mail the ashes back to the church. Maybe they'll get the hint.

Bastards.

 

[Marc]

My advice? Take that letter and burn it. Mail the ashes back to the church. Maybe they'll get the hint.

uhh.. she said it was e-mail, if she burns it and sends it back he'd get a big backage of melted metal and plastic.

maybe not a bad idea, but then she wouldn't be able to tell us how it went.

The whole thing does sound like the start of a cult. The head is to be considered inerrant, not to be questioned. Greater control over member's lives. Shunning (disconnection, disfellowship, whatever they want to call it) former members. Definitely a good time to get out, and maybe look up some material on exit counseling.

 

[Roadtoad]

uhh.. she said it was e-mail, if she burns it and sends it back he'd get a big backage of melted metal and plastic.

maybe not a bad idea, but then she wouldn't be able to tell us how it went.

The whole thing does sound like the start of a cult. The head is to be considered inerrant, not to be questioned. Greater control over member's lives. Shunning (disconnection, disfellowship, whatever they want to call it) former members. Definitely a good time to get out, and maybe look up some material on exit counseling.

Well, I'd print it out first...

Although, sending back a mangled computer would be a sweet idea, too. My kids know of a virus she could e-mail him that would annihilate his system.

Ruby, I'd hit a Christian book store and pick up the book, Churches That Abuse. After one of the incidents I went through, I read through that book, and found a lot of help there. I'd recommend a few others, as well, as soon as I can recall titles, but for God's sake, GET OUT OF THERE. This yobbo is not a pastor, he is, as Marc said, a cult leader.

Any time you have a leader who cannot be challenged, you are in trouble. He may have been anointed by God to lead, but he's still just a man. He's prone to make mistakes, and right now, he's making some serious whoppers.

As to your "friends," and this paranoia trip, demanding to know names and the like, I say f*** 'em. First of all, you are never to have a sort of "secret" group of leaders within a church, if for no other reason, than because there is no accountability. Second, you don't play those sort of games because it does not strengthen the pastor, it undermines his authority. Third, it gets into the games played by the Nicolaitans, (and no, this ain't the place to go into gnositicism and the like), which is prohibited as stated in Revelation. (God, I'm sorry I brought that up! Now Billiefan is going to show up and start riffing...)

Friends like this, you do not need. I suggest you tell your friend's husband that if he were really a Christian, he'd be spending more time LISTENING rather than TALKING to you. I'm sick of this crap, this game that if someone leaves a body of believers, it can't possibly be the fault of the leadership. In your case, it's not only the fault of the leaders, but the fault of members of the congregation that are sitting by and allowing this jerk with a title run your church into the ground. That's not even SMART!

Tell you one thing, kiddo: A couple of good suggestions have been floated. Why not connect with some of your other friends, find out what you have in common theologically speaking, and put together a small church. Keep it open, keep it real, keep it in the heart. Might work. Sure can't do any worse than this abusive pack of liars you're leaving behind.

Heaven only knows, you and your family deserve better.

 

[arcticpenguin]

I can see that it's going to be impossible to keep friends that still attend my former church. I need to cut all ties and just be civil if we run into each other. It's the safest way....unfortunately!

It sounds like the friend you met is being encouraged to shun you. You don't have to cut that tie, you can leave that decision up to her. Maybe she will find the courage to fight it, maybe not.

 

[Ratman_tf]

Ruby, it sounds to me like you need to extract your sense of self-worth from that 'group' and place it solely on yourself and your immediate family.

There's my stab at armchair psychology for today.

 

[AmateurScientist]

It sounds like the friend you met is being encouraged to shun you. You don't have to cut that tie, you can leave that decision up to her. Maybe she will find the courage to fight it, maybe not.

I agree. It never harmed anyone to be the bigger person in a situation like this. The best way to handle encounters with your friends from your former church is to be extra friendly to them and to act as if nothing happened. That will demonstrate that you are willing to remain friends despite the conflict and that you do not hold grudges. If they are not up to the task, then it is their loss and their failure.

The satisfaction you will derive from this is in knowing that you did the right thing by demonstrating moral courage and genuine kindness and forgiveness. If you salvage some friendships, you will get further satisfaction. If not, then you may comfort yourself that such persons may not have really been your trusted friends after all.

Good luck with it. Do what your heart tells you to do.

AS

 

[kittynh]

Actually, Ruby, the fact that you looked your friend from the church in the eye and are sticking up for yourself, shows you've grown more by leaving the church than you ever would have by staying. Churchs like that want women to not only be meek, they want them to be totally unquestioning. Be polite, be classy, but most of all BE GONE!

Best wishes, Kitty

 

[Roadtoad]

Actually, Ruby, the fact that you looked your friend from the church in the eye and are sticking up for yourself, shows you've grown more by leaving the church than you ever would have by staying. Churchs like that want women to not only be meek, they want them to be totally unquestioning. Be polite, be classy, but most of all BE GONE!

Best wishes, Kitty

Your post made me think of moments in my marriage, Kittynh.

Supposedly, according to the Southern Baptist Convention, women are to be "Gratefully Submissive," (Caps mine), which was probably one of the damn dumbest things the SBC has ever said.

Probably the most "submissive" thing my wife has done is when I've gone out and bought some tool I really didn't need, or blown money on books I won't get to reading any time soon, she's looked me in the eye and demanded, "What were you thinking!?!?!?

I'm sorry, but even in scripture, I was more drawn to people like Deborah, and Mary, (sister of Lazarus), who just didn't fit the "submissive" role.

God bless 'em! I like tough women! They may be every inch a lady, but By God, they have COURAGE. I'll take that any day. That and brains.

 

[Zep]

Ruby, this is truly the time to "turn the other cheek". If you are happy with your decisions lately, and it does sound like you are, don't let their ranting get to you ever.

This is a bit like when a marriage goes bad - it starts out good but gets so bad that the separation becomes inevitable. But even after the divorce, you still want to rant and question about why it was so good before but then got so bad.

This is why you need to move on, not only figuratively but literally too - find something else to do, more important and satisfying in your life. Don't look back with anguish at those people who made your life a mess and beat yourself up about it - they were the problem and they are history now.

And I do pity the wife of the "cowboy" - I suspect, from your description of the conversation, that she is probably thinking much along the lines that you were not so very long ago... Maybe you will not lose that friendship...

cheers
Zep

 

[Marc]

Supposedly, according to the Southern Baptist Convention, women are to be "Gratefully Submissive," (Caps mine), which was probably one of the damn dumbest things the SBC has ever said.

Probably the best thing I've done in my life was to give what little help I could to a woman getting out of a mariage to a Baptist. Descriptions of his family made them sound like the mafia. In their world women did not get higher education, they did not get jobs, they did not ask questions. Yes, of course he beat her whenever he got pissed off, but she worked on getting him to control his anger, and it worked. He eventualy got to the point where rather than hitting her he would leave the room. His family then ridiculed him, saying she took away his masculinity, so he went back to beating her.

One of the reasons she stayed in there as long as she did was she figured it was like that everywhere, people just didn't talk about it. Maybe in some of these communities it is like that. It wasn't till she met some truly nice guys online that she realized not everyone is like that, which led to her escaping.

Hearing these religious bastards who promote that kind of environment, calling it the way god intended people to be.. well...

I can't even think of how to describe what it makes me feel.