Necss iii

[Wowbagger]

The "venue" I'm talking about it Manhattan not any specific building. Knowing that there are these transportation and parking problems yet continuing to have it in Manhattan smacks of cognitive dissonance to me.

Just out of curiosity, where would you like to see the conference moved to?

 

[SkepticScott]

Just out of curiosity, where would you like to see the conference moved to?

Somewhere near public transit and also where you could drive and park in the place's free parking lot, without having to fight a big city's traffic. I'm sure there's a place like that near NYC. Wouldn't that meet everybody's needs?

 

[Bytor]

You left out the two most important criteria, as far I'm concerned: free self-parking and easy access from major highways.

Free parking in a city of even small-to-moderate size, for more than a 2 hour window, much less in Manhattan? What alternate universe did you come from where that exists? Oh, yeah, I forgot, there's these empty lots all over the place in cities that can just be paved over for free and nobody's gotta pay property taxes on it so people can park there for a few days, free of charge. Pffft!

Food is food; I'm not picky and I'll brown-bag it if necessary. I'm there for a conference, not to see a park. I'll walk through a state park or town forest here at home. Tourists don't bother me, I walked through a multitude around Central Park.

Then don't go the the fricking park if you're not there for a walk in the park. Point, if any?

I've already decided that I won't be at NECSS 4 unless there's a compelling lineup of events and/or it relocates. In my opinion, the positives are overwhelmed by the negatives.

Talk about unreasonable and whiny, petty "negatives".

 

[SkepticScott]

Free parking in a city of even small-to-moderate size, for more than a 2 hour window, much less in Manhattan?

I never said I expected free parking in Manhattan. Please read what I wrote. For your information, a hotel with a parking lot pays property taxes on the parking lot.

Then don't go the the fricking park if you're not there for a walk in the park. Point, if any?

Again, please read and try to understand what I wrote.

For the record I've gone to many game tournaments near Baltimore with free parking, easy access to a highway, no significant traffic except during rush hour, and nearby public transportation.

 

[Bytor]

NECSS was good. Unfortunately there were major problems.

* There were two live podcasts, where previous years only had one. IMO, the correct number of podcasts during a conference is zero.

How, pray tell, is a live podcast, at least the two done, any different that a "panel", of which you seem to be so enamoured? 'Cause honestly I do not see the different.

A bunch of people talking about a subject here, a bunch of people talking about a subject there. People lining up to ask questions of the talking heads here, people lining up to ask questions of the talking heads there.

Nope, still not seeing the difference.

* They neglected to schedule a lunch on Sunday.

So? It only went to 2pm on Sunday. Have late lunch. If you're diabetic, bring along a sufficiently sized snack - I doubt anybody would complain one you show them the medic alert bracelet.

* When I want live music, I go to a concert. The singer, while talented, did not belong at NECSS. It would have been fine as an after-hours event.

Some how I'm skeptical that you know how to tell if a singer is truly talented. Why does a conference have to be only lectures and panels? Why are those the only two allowed types of presentations?

* As usual, the location stunk. Traffic, poor public transit, and the only parking around was valet parking (where you have to agree to hold them blameless even if they total your car).

Public transit looked good to me. I'm not familiar with the New York subway system, but with trains every few minutes and what looked like buses above ground every 10 to 15 minutes, I'm wondering what unrealistic expectations you have for pubic transit?

I've commented on your unrealistic parking expectations in another post.

If the organizers did not have the podcasts and concerts, NECSS could have been a one-day event.

Yes, it could have been a 1 day even with fewer things. TAM could also be a one day even with fewer things, too. Your point?

People traveling to NECSS wouldn't have had to get hotel rooms, which would have let more students attend -- something they desired. Instead they added junk and fewer students were able to attend.

I think you mean "only people travelling to NECSS within a couple hours drive wouldn't have had to get hotel rooms". Sure, but only if they don't stay for any evening social events.

This was a "regional" conference, as you mentioned, not a NYC local skeptics conference - did you forget the people from New England involved in this? That's a four hour drive, at best Did you expect them to leave Boston at 4 am to get to NYC in time to be registered for a 10am start? And then drive 4+ hours home again after a 5pm close? Or were they supposed to drive home after the 9pm end of the speakers cocktail and get back to Boston around 2am? Not to mention those from Vermont, New Hampshire and Maine.

Oh, and nor do I think you realize just how many of us came from father away such that flying was the only practical way to get to NYC.

I don't feel that you've really thought this through.

As for your fewer students evidence - evidence, please.

In previous years my rating of NECSS was slightly positive -- the good outweighed the bad. This year the balance tipped the other way. I won't consider registering next year until I see the schedule and venue, and there will have to be a great improvement before I consider going again.

My personal opinion of your opinion? ~~~~~

 

[Wowbagger]

Somewhere near public transit and also where you could drive and park in the place's free parking lot, without having to fight a big city's traffic. I'm sure there's a place like that near NYC. Wouldn't that meet everybody's needs?

There is Long Island, but that has its own special species of traffic problems.

Westchester County would be nice. I would be all up for that! Unfortunately, there is nothing much else to do around there, for the evenings and such.
I know. I live there.

 

[Bytor]

I never said I expected free parking in Manhattan. Please read what I wrote. For your information, a hotel with a parking lot pays property taxes on the parking lot.

I quoted exactly what you said: "free self-parking". It's there for anybody to see.

Again, please read and try to understand what I wrote.

OK, you please try to remember what you wrote. Deal?

For the record I've gone to many game tournaments near Baltimore with free parking, easy access to a highway, no significant traffic except during rush hour, and nearby public transportation.

Never having been to Baltimore, I'm guessing that the operative word in that paragraph is "near". Which, IMNSHO, make that point irrelevant to the parking situation that exists inside any city, much less a large, crowded one like Manhattan.

In any case, where do you expect these parking lots for the hotels to magically appear from? The cost with buying attached lots and razing the other buildings to create a parking garage, if not recovered by charging you separately, would be subsumed into the per-night room fees. What are the chances you'd then start bitching about the room fee?

 

[SkepticScott]

Poor Bytor. It seems that he has to intentionally misinterpret what people write so he can insult them. I don't feed trolls so I put him on ignore.

 

[Reager]

Scott -- I'm sorry you didn't fully enjoy the conference (although I'm happy your "negatives" are mostly confined to personal preference). I'm afraid we can't do much about the geographic issues, as NYC really is the most feasible location for NECSS (and I'll admit that complaining about the lack of public transportation options in NYC seems a bit...odd!). Regarding your dislike of the program content...different strokes, I guess...although we will very likely have a full day of programming on Sunday for NECSS 2012. Hopefully it will be enough to entice you to attend!

PS - I didn't forget about your DVDs!

 

[The Central Scrutinizer]

NECSS was good. Unfortunately there were major problems.

* There were two live podcasts, where previous years only had one. IMO, the correct number of podcasts during a conference is zero.

I kind-of-sort-of agree. However, Julia's podcast actually ran more like a panel and I thought it was quite good.

* They neglected to schedule a lunch on Sunday.

Well, it ended at 2. You could have gone for a late lunch. Or, there was a 20 minute break before the singer, and there were numerous food carts and pizza places within 2-3 blocks.

* When I want live music, I go to a concert. The singer, while talented, did not belong at NECSS. It would have been fine as an after-hours event.

Yeah, it was a bit odd. But, it was only 20 minutes or so.

* As usual, the location stunk. Traffic, poor public transit, and the only parking around was valet parking (where you have to agree to hold them blameless even if they total your car).

I strongly disagree. The location was wonderful, several subway stops within 4-5 blocks, and there's cabs all over the place. The auditorium itself was much better than the French Institute, although the sound men/women left something to be desired.

If the organizers did not have the podcasts and concerts, NECSS could have been a one-day event. People traveling to NECSS wouldn't have had to get hotel rooms, which would have let more students attend -- something they desired. Instead they added junk and fewer students were able to attend.

I'm sort of in agreement. When you go to 2 days, you introduce extra costs for attendees, like hotel. I would suggest either 2 full days (instead of a day and a half) or just one day.

I donated to the student scholarship fund. I spoke with Jay and Michael and I think they were in agreement that it wasn't publicized enough.

In previous years my rating of NECSS was slightly positive -- the good outweighed the bad. This year the balance tipped the other way. I won't consider registering next year until I see the schedule and venue, and there will have to be a great improvement before I consider going again.

I think all three years have been generally good, and fully expect to go again next year!

 

[The Central Scrutinizer]

It is unlikely that NECSS will be moved out of Manhattan, so you have to accept what it means to be at a conference in Manhattan or just choose not to attend.

This.

Being on Manhattan is a big draw, especially for out of towners. If it was held at the Holiday Inn at exit 123 on the interstate, I certainly wouldn't attend.

And, from talking to the organizers over the past 3 years, it will remain in the city.

 

[The Central Scrutinizer]

Scott -- I'm sorry you didn't fully enjoy the conference (although I'm happy your "negatives" are mostly confined to personal preference). I'm afraid we can't do much about the geographic issues, as NYC really is the most feasible location for NECSS (and I'll admit that complaining about the lack of public transportation options in NYC seems a bit...odd!). Regarding your dislike of the program content...different strokes, I guess...although we will very likely have a full day of programming on Sunday for NECSS 2012. Hopefully it will be enough to entice you to attend!

PS - I didn't forget about your DVDs!

Michael (I think Reager = you),

I think the conference was pretty good, and I fully plan on attending NECSS IV.

I think a full Sunday is a good move.

Also, work on publicizing the student scholarships a little better. I think you'll get a lot of donors. Hotel costs shouldn't be an issue, since I assume all of them would be from the five boroughs.

Oh, and I was disappointed there were no t-shirts this year, even for purchase.

 

[Wowbagger]

Oh, and I was disappointed there were no t-shirts this year, even for purchase.

I didn't notice they weren't available for purchase, because I got one as a volunteer.

I would definately recommend making them available for purchase next year! It's kinda weird that they weren't. (...if what Scrut says is true, and you know his word and reality ain't always similar.)

It might not even be too late for this year. I did notice you had a bunch left over, Mike.

 

[idoubtit]

I was also there. I'm not a BIG fan of it being in Manhattan considering that just across the river in NJ would have meant way cheaper hotels. That said, some people do like the city experience including the people who came from Ireland and Germany and Canada just to attend. I took the train in from central PA. It was smooth. And I didn't pay for parking because driving into NYC is crazy.

I was at the first NECSS. Loved the speakers, hated the venue and one-day schedule. If it was not 2 days this year, I probably would not have gone. Or, if I did, I would not have enjoyed it nearly as much because cons are all about schmoozing to me and the events Friday and Saturday night were the prime time to make new friends and have fun. And I did.

 

[Reager]

Yes, Reager=me!

Anyway, we didn't do t-shirts this year because, even with dedicated volunteers, it's tough to find the manpower to handle everything you'd like! We had around 30 volunteers and even then we were short-staffed at times. Also, t-shirts aren't huge sellers (at least not "conference" shirts), so the financial incentive wasn't even there. We could have given them away, but it would have increased the ticket price even further, and we really tried to keep them as low as possible (honest!). And the purple volunteer t-shirts were only for volunteers to identify them as such.

I totally get that many folks don't dig NYC, and that it's a pain to drive in, etc... but it really is a lot easier for folks from outside New York to get into Manhattan than vice versa, especially for everyone who doesn't have a car. New York has every amenity you could want: food, lodging, entertainment, etc... easy access to airports and, believe it or not, lots of cheap public transportation options. Yes, lodging is generally more expensive, but, IMO, there's also something....intangible that we get from holding the conference in Manhattan, a certain amount of cache that we wouldn't necessarily garner if we held the conference in, say, Teaneck, NJ.

 

[Ziggy66]

About the two podcasts on the schedule. The live SGU podcast is THE foundation of NECSS. Everything else has grown around the draw of the live show, so abandoning that would be silly. As far as the Rationally Speaking podcast, it was only natural that the official podcast of the other co-sponsor of NECSS be added when the event expanded to two days. Besides that, the RS podcast turned out to be one of the livelier panel discussions that would have been a great part of NECSS even if it weren't a podcast.

As someone who has attended all of the NECSS's and the previous live SGU shows this was the best location and schedule yet. Thank you to all who organised it.

 

[Kochanski]

I really enjoyed hearing Hai-Ting sing again (she sang at Skepticamp to our great enjoyment). While this may not be a traditional thing for a conference I think it is a wonderful addition to the conference.

The Variation on the American Mammal was a wonderful combination of things, text from a naturalist that inspired a composer and sung by a great singer with illustrations from a skeptical artist. We are always looking for ways to bring new people into skepticism, or at least to give those who are not directly in the sciences or academia the feeling that they too belong and here is an illustration of just that.

Who knows what various people in the audience might be inspired to do seeing this non-traditional take on skepticism. What Hai-Ting did could be presented in any number of events and be used as a jumping off point for discussions on science for groups that would not think to discuss science, or think that they could discuss science.

And then she told us of her new project Science Fair which will be science experiments done and sung before a live audience!!! With an opportunity for individuals to submit their favorite experiments to it. Again, an opportunity to INCLUDE more people, more audiences in science and skepticism.

This is precisely the type of thing that should have a place at a conference on science and skepticism.

I say Brava to the singer and Bravo to the composer and artist, it was wonderful and creative and gives people a new way to think, which is something we can all use.

 

[The Central Scrutinizer]

I really enjoyed hearing Hai-Ting sing again (she sang at Skepticamp to our great enjoyment). While this may not be a traditional thing for a conference I think it is a wonderful addition to the conference.

The Variation on the American Mammal was a wonderful combination of things, text from a naturalist that inspired a composer and sung by a great singer with illustrations from a skeptical artist. We are always looking for ways to bring new people into skepticism, or at least to give those who are not directly in the sciences or academia the feeling that they too belong and here is an illustration of just that.

Who knows what various people in the audience might be inspired to do seeing this non-traditional take on skepticism. What Hai-Ting did could be presented in any number of events and be used as a jumping off point for discussions on science for groups that would not think to discuss science, or think that they could discuss science.

And then she told us of her new project Science Fair which will be science experiments done and sung before a live audience!!! With an opportunity for individuals to submit their favorite experiments to it. Again, an opportunity to INCLUDE more people, more audiences in science and skepticism.

This is precisely the type of thing that should have a place at a conference on science and skepticism.

I say Brava to the singer and Bravo to the composer and artist, it was wonderful and creative and gives people a new way to think, which is something we can all use.

Upon further reflection, I agree with this.

 

[Bytor]

Poor Bytor. It seems that he has to intentionally misinterpret what people write so he can insult them. I don't feed trolls so I put him on ignore.

So basically, instead of being able to answer the points I made, you just do this? You're just so full of fail.

 

[Wowbagger]

If I ever had to write biographies about all the presenters at NECSS, these are the titles I might give them:

Todd Robbins: Esophagus of Steel

Phil Plait: When Bad Still Means Good

Steve Novella: The Man Who Never Sleeps

Jay and Bob Novella: How to Tell Them Apart

Rebecca Watson: SkepChick
(I will try to think of something more clever, and less obvious later)

Evan Bernstein: That Other Guy on SGU

John Rennie: Channeling Penn
(A NECSS-specific joke. You had to be there.)

Carl Zimmer: The Man, Not the Tapeworm
(Not a NECSS-related joke. But, I am sure Carl would get it.)

Eugenie Scott: Crime Fighting Grandmother of Science!

Michael De Dora: The Chiseled Face of Rationality

George Hrab: Groovy Frood
(I might have had some other, more clever idea for him. But, I forgot what it was.)

Dan Gardner: Exploring the Many, Many, Many, Many "Cousins" of Jeane Dixon
(Definitely a NECSS-specific joke)

John Allen Paulos: No, He is Definitely NOT a Mad Scientist. Why do you ask?

Julia Galef: Tales of a Head Turning Journalist
Or:
Julia Galef: Go Speed Daters!
(Perhaps we can write them both as two different volumes about her life. )

Hai-Ting Chinn: The Mezzo-Soprano of Science!

If you order the series, now, you will also receive as a special bonus:

Surly Amy and Johnny Skaare: A Rich History of Body Decoration

Sorry, I did not have time to do these, yet:

Jennifer Michael Hecht
Susan Jacoby
Brooke Allen
Brian Dunning
Kendrick Frazier
Sadie Crabtree
Massimo Pigliucci (Almost had one, but it was really lame. He deserves a good, dignified title.)
Jacob Appel
Sheena Iyengar
Gary Marcus
Eldar Shafir