My "ESP" experiences

[Valley_girl]

I know you guys are going to flame me for this one, but I am interested in your opinions on what happened here...

When I was in high school, I did a lot of painting. I painted this particular piece that was very abstract. It was really a painting of nothing discernible, just vivid colors. But it did have some identifiable shapes. An artistic "stream of consciousness" representation, I guess you could call it. It was very unique, or so I thought.

About four years ago, I went to an art showing in a neighboring community with my then-boyfriend. We were admiring the works of a certain artist, when I went around the corner to see more of his paintings. There, on the wall, was my painting. Exactly. I was stunned. The artist approached me and I asked him about it. I KNOW I had never met this man before, yet he kept insisting that we had met somewhere. He could not pinpoint where. He was not someone I would have forgotten (yes, he was hot) and I am very good with faces. I knew we had not met before. He said that particular painting was one of his favorites because he had woken out of a deep sleep after having a very vivid dream and painted it in his kitchen, feverishly, at 4 in the morning. The painting was special to him because he felt a very strong connection to "something" (his words) as he painted it.

I am a very logical person, and I know that this incident was just an unbelievable coincidence, but it has definitely given me pause. Weird, huh?

OK - flame away.

 

[Ipecac]

When I was in high school, I did a lot of painting. I painted this particular piece that was very abstract. It was really a painting of nothing discernible, just vivid colors. But it did have some identifiable shapes. An artistic "stream of consciousness" representation, I guess you could call it. It was very unique, or so I thought.

About four years ago, I went to an art showing in a neighboring community with my then-boyfriend. We were admiring the works of a certain artist, when I went around the corner to see more of his paintings. There, on the wall, was my painting. Exactly. I was stunned. The artist approached me and I asked him about it. I KNOW I had never met this man before, yet he kept insisting that we had met somewhere. He could not pinpoint where. He was not someone I would have forgotten (yes, he was hot) and I am very good with faces. I knew we had not met before. He said that particular painting was one of his favorites because he had woken out of a deep sleep after having a very vivid dream and painted it in his kitchen, feverishly, at 4 in the morning. The painting was special to him because he felt a very strong connection to "something" (his words) as he painted it.

I am a very logical person, and I know that this incident was just an unbelievable coincidence, but it has definitely given me pause. Weird, huh?

OK - flame away.

No flaming necessary. You're not claiming this was paranormal are you? You're admitting it was coincidence.

I suspect that if you compared the paintings side by side you'd see that they aren't exact. Similar perhaps, enough for you to think they were identical, but it's unlikely they were. As for what he said, he was just wrong, that's all. Or maybe hitting on you.

 

[renata]

No flaming necessary. You're not claiming this was paranormal are you? You're admitting it was coincidence.

I suspect that if you compared the paintings side by side you'd see that they aren't exact. Similar perhaps, enough for you to think they were identical, but it's unlikely they were. As for what he said, he was just wrong, that's all. Or maybe hitting on you.

You stole my idea!!! Did you have a strong connection to my mind?

First of all, those "can you explain this" stories are really hard. Too many variables, and some things really are difficult to explain. There are amazing coincidences in this world. But my first thought was that the artist saw a young woman, interested in his work, and whether he was hitting on you- or trying to sell the painting- decided to create a little mystery for you. The line- I am sure we met before is an old one, but he had a bonus, when you must have told him you painted a similar painting. I mean I assume you did, he did not just start talking about painting it at 4 am out of the blue, did he? Even if he did, it could still be because he noticed you were enthralled by it. Since you yourself said your painting was abstract, it is not surprising someone had a similar style.

It is also possible you unconsciously replicated style of his work in your painting- if you saw a sample of his work somewhere before you painted. This, once again is the reason it is hard to explain these things- too many possibilities. I also suspect the paintings are not exact, but you can get a photograph of your painting and a photo/reproduction of his, and compare.

Fact is, there are many "what the hell???" incidences in everyone's life. It is how we think about them and approach them separates a skeptic from a non skeptic. Nothing in your post made me think you were seeking out a paranormal explanation, although I am sure there are many people in your place who might

 

[T'ai Chi]

Therefore, we have two ways we can deal with it.

(1) We can assume that there is a perfectly mundane, everyday explanation for what happened (e.g. imperfect memory, coincidence, you saw the show, etc.) or

(2) We can assume that somehow your brain received some sort of "ESP" communication from a pre-taped show broadcast over the electromagnetic spectrum, an event unprecedented in human history.

Which option would a real skeptic choose? The answer's pretty clear.

Uh, a real skeptic would chose neither, because a real skeptic wouldn't assume. They'd examine the evidence.

A real skeptic would also stick to examining the evidence, instead of resporting to personal attacks on Stereolab (not that you have, I'm just saying for those who are).

 

[Stereolab]

This event is so obviously not paranormal I can't believe you give any credence to this at all.

I guess it's "obvious" to you, since you weren't there.

I appreciate your presenting some more possible explanations, but none of them apply.

 

[T'ai Chi]

Listen to how sure you are that you have all the answers, and I don't. Please, keep telling me what I "believe."

Get used to it Stereo!

 

[Valley_girl]

You stole my idea!!! Did you have a strong connection to my mind?

First of all, those "can you explain this" stories are really hard. Too many variables, and some things really are difficult to explain. There are amazing coincidences in this world. But my first thought was that the artist saw a young woman, interested in his work, and whether he was hitting on you- or trying to sell the painting- decided to create a little mystery for you. The line- I am sure we met before is an old one, but he had a bonus, when you must have told him you painted a similar painting. I mean I assume you did, he did not just start talking about painting it at 4 am out of the blue, did he? Even if he did, it could still be because he noticed you were enthralled by it. Since you yourself said your painting was abstract, it is not surprising someone had a similar style.

It is also possible you unconsciously replicated style of his work in your painting- if you saw a sample of his work somewhere before you painted. This, once again is the reason it is hard to explain these things- too many possibilities. I also suspect the paintings are not exact, but you can get a photograph of your painting and a photo/reproduction of his, and compare.

Fact is, there are many "what the hell???" incidences in everyone's life. It is how we think about them and approach them separates a skeptic from a non skeptic. Nothing in your post made me think you were seeking out a paranormal explanation, although I am sure there are many people in your place who might

His evil plan might have worked, too, if I hadn't been there with my boyfriend!

I agree that side-by-side comparisons might show differences that weren't immediately apparent to my eyes. I hadn't seen any of his work before, though. He is a local artist and I didn't live here when I was in high school. I didn't explain why I was interested in the painting until he had already explained about the 4 am painting, the "strong connection", etc.

You are right. There are truly some amazing coincidences in this world. It's situations like the one that I described that help me to understand how people can believe in some of the woo-woo things that they do. Had I been less of a skeptic at that point, I might currently be using my "amazing artistic psychic powers" to make a hell of a lot more money that I do now!

 

[T'ai Chi]

No need to, until he can show that there is something real there.. it is fictional. Why do you insist on shifting the burden of evidence to those that doubt claims? When I claim it's fiction, I'm simply stating that I don't believe him.

It's not about shifting the burden, it is about being clear in what you are attempting to communicate.

One can be skeptical about something (which is fine), and one can state something as a fact. You seem to desire to do both. First, you say it is fictional, as if that is a fact. Then you say that by saying it is fictional, that you are merely claiming it is fictional. Why be so confusing here?

Do you believe that absence of evidence is evidence of absence??

Yes.

So absence of evidence of extraterrestrial life in the universe is evidence that no extraterrestrial life exists in the universe? Really?

All you can conclude from 'no evidence' is that there is no evidence.

That's a rather redundant and useless position.

Only if understanding reality correctly is redundant and useless. I don't think it is.

How can you conclude, without an experiment, that it is nonexistent?

Because there is no evidence. I need no experiments to figure out BS when I hear it. The burden of evidence is upon the claimee, not the doubters.

Again, you are confused. This isn't about the burden. This is about science. You are stating a fact without doing any controlled experiment.

We should really forget science and its methods and just take your subjective opinions on things from now on, beacuse you know how to "figure out BS", because that is really what you are desiring us to do here.

It is not a false comparison because those claims are exactly like his "ESP" claim, they are unfalsifiable and are based on the same "logic" and evidence as his "ESP" claim.

Yes, it is a false comparison. The history of the Smurfs is quite clear: invented around 1958, made in to figurines, books, then TV. The explanations of real-world ESP-like experiences is not that cut and dry, and needs experimentation to analyze it.

 

[T'ai Chi]

Like Clancie, you didn't make a claim.. but you still believe it.

Again, you attempt guilt by association.

You have brought up Clancie's name twice, and Lucianarchy's name once when they have nothing at all to do with the topic at hand.

Just what are you trying to accomplish here?

 

[LTC8K6]

The universe is a special case.

The absence of evidence of pink elephants in my office is evidence that no pink elephants exist in my office.

 

[Stereolab]

Your office is the special case, not the universe. Most things aren't as clear-cut as the pink elephants that might be in your office.

 

[voidx]

I know you guys are going to flame me for this one, but I am interested in your opinions on what happened here...

When I was in high school, I did a lot of painting. I painted this particular piece that was very abstract. It was really a painting of nothing discernible, just vivid colors. But it did have some identifiable shapes. An artistic "stream of consciousness" representation, I guess you could call it. It was very unique, or so I thought.

About four years ago, I went to an art showing in a neighboring community with my then-boyfriend. We were admiring the works of a certain artist, when I went around the corner to see more of his paintings. There, on the wall, was my painting. Exactly. I was stunned. The artist approached me and I asked him about it. I KNOW I had never met this man before, yet he kept insisting that we had met somewhere. He could not pinpoint where. He was not someone I would have forgotten (yes, he was hot) and I am very good with faces. I knew we had not met before. He said that particular painting was one of his favorites because he had woken out of a deep sleep after having a very vivid dream and painted it in his kitchen, feverishly, at 4 in the morning. The painting was special to him because he felt a very strong connection to "something" (his words) as he painted it.

I am a very logical person, and I know that this incident was just an unbelievable coincidence, but it has definitely given me pause. Weird, huh?

OK - flame away.

My biggest problem here is with the statement you KNEW you'd never met this man before. I find statements like these to be impossible. With all the people we interact in a liftetime its impossible to KNOW for sure we've never met them before. I myself often in the city I live in now see people who I think I recognize, but can't think of where, and I've had cases where they remembered me, but not vice versa, and I know I've done that myself, remembered someone, without them remembering me. Now to say he is a local artist, is that just assuming that we has lived there his whole life and gone to high school there and never lived anywhere else? Its likely you two never went to high school together, but its possible he was the quiet kid in the corner that no one ever paid any attention to either. Its just to hard to say with certainty you've never met him. As far as the artistic part goes abstraction is not at all uncommon, and the likely hood of all the highschool kids, 2 of them creating something quite similiar looking in an abstract fashion, is although rare, not impossible. Especially in high school artists are often not so unique and original as they like to think. I know, I was one of the artist kids . I can think of only one kid in our class that had above and beyond everyone else, a latent talent, and even his work was just mimicry of his favored historical influences.

 

[Ipecac]

Uh, a real skeptic would chose neither, because a real skeptic wouldn't assume. They'd examine the evidence.

Sorry, T'ai Chi but there is no evidence. There's nothing but memory and conjecture. So nothing to examine here.

(If there were evidence, you'd be right, of course. But then I never would have used the word assume in the first place.)

 

[Ipecac]

I guess it's "obvious" to you, since you weren't there.

I appreciate your presenting some more possible explanations, but none of them apply.

The statements of a true believer.

You do understand that people make these kinds of claims ALL THE TIME? Everyone will occasionally pick up the phone KNOWING who is on the other line. People do it all the time. They just don't credit it when they're wrong.

Remarkably, one day I walked onto the train just before the doors closed and it left the station. When I arrived at the transfer station, I arrived at the next train just in time too. Did I telepathically summon the trains? No. I do this twice every day so I've done it thousands of times. Once in a while, the timing works out. Coincidence.

 

[bjornart]

I guess it's "obvious" to you, since you weren't there.

I appreciate your presenting some more possible explanations, but none of them apply.

Then please explain to us why they don't apply? Why does this not qualify as a coincidence that leaped out as special to you because of its unlikeliness? Why can't it be that your feeling of certainty was based on that? And why don't you realize that really weird things happen a lot in a world with 6 billion people who can only observe what happens to them and tend to ignore the actual statistical possibilities?

 

[Valley_girl]

My biggest problem here is with the statement you KNEW you'd never met this man before. I find statements like these to be impossible. With all the people we interact in a liftetime its impossible to KNOW for sure we've never met them before. I myself often in the city I live in now see people who I think I recognize, but can't think of where, and I've had cases where they remembered me, but not vice versa, and I know I've done that myself, remembered someone, without them remembering me. Now to say he is a local artist, is that just assuming that we has lived there his whole life and gone to high school there and never lived anywhere else? Its likely you two never went to high school together, but its possible he was the quiet kid in the corner that no one ever paid any attention to either. Its just to hard to say with certainty you've never met him.

Ironically, this is the only thing about the whole experience that I have never questioned. I grew up in a town hundreds of miles away from where this artist was living, and the population of my hometown was 600 people. Out of the 19 people in my class, he wasn't the quiet kid in the corner. There was no hiding out in that school.

On a sad note, I was just doing some research on the internet to find out where he grew up and if we might have crossed paths (he grew up in New Mexico and Texas, me in Colorado), only to find that he passed away a year and a half ago at the age of 34.

 

[LTC8K6]

The universe is the special case. There are others.

We have not, and we cannot explore all of it, therefore the absence of evidence of ET's in the universe is not evidence that there are no ET's in the universe.

This does not necessarily apply to everything.

That was my point.

For instance, the lack of evidence that stereolab has been in my office is not evidence that he hasn't been in my office.

The lack of evidence of live T. Rex on Earth is evidence that there are no live T. Rex on Earth.

If there were pink elephants in my office, there would be evidence of them.

Same for the live T. Rex on Earth.

If you had been in my office, there might not be evidence that you had been there, so.......

 

[Starrman]

I appreciate your presenting some more possible explanations, but none of them apply.

Stereolab, in your opinion, what is the most likely explanation for the events?

 

[thaiboxerken]

I have rejected the "false memory" explanation because it's simply not true. I probably have emails saved, sent minutes after the "phone call" incident, that "prove" this, at least to me.

Dejavu false memory type events can restructure your recollection of events minutes after it happens. You don't think that it could've been a Deja vu, memory misplacement type of event?

I have rejected the "coincidence" explanation, because I am not one to think coincidences are ESP.

This is circular.. you've basically said that you reject coincidence because you reject coincidence. IE.. you believe in ESP in this case.. just because. This is not a logical reason to dismiss the coincidence explanation.

I tried to explain this. It is "possible" that they were coincidences, but it's about as likely as winning the Lotto five times in five attempts, as I also explained.

No it's not. Your "probabilities" are wholly based on your personal outlook and not real statistics.

Finally, I am looking into the possibility of the Wheel of Fortune episode being a rerun, and also the possibility that "THE LAND OF OZ" was perhaps announced as a "Fictional Place," not simply a "Place."

It's rather tough, since you don't even remember the DAY that your wheel of fortune thing happened.

If those turn out to be real possibilities, I have no problem AT ALL saying "hey, that probably wasn't ESP after all."

Those facts will be very hard to establish indeed, I seriously doubt that you'll ever find out.

You act like I am so sure in my beliefs about what happened, when I have been trying to tell you all along that I am not...that is why I started this topic! If I was sure it was ESP, believe me, I would have had no reason to post on here.

Sure you would, I mean.. Luci still posts here.

 

[Stereolab]

Remarkably, one day I walked onto the train just before the doors closed and it left the station. When I arrived at the transfer station, I arrived at the next train just in time too. Did I telepathically summon the trains? No. I do this twice every day so I've done it thousands of times. Once in a while, the timing works out. Coincidence.

I will not debate the "coincidence" thing any longer. I have had plenty of coincidences occur in my lifetime. There is no need for you all to give me these condescending explanations of how coincidences happen. If you don't believe me that this was something more then a coincidence, then fine. I am not going to bother trying to convince you any longer.