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My Conversation with Prof. Jim Fetzer

In a rare case of agreement with CE, I had the same impression when I read (I haven't quite managed to prevail against my tl;dr instinct yet, so I should say: part of) that exchange.

That said, Fetzer is still a misguided baffoon and whackjob and quite far out on the loony side :D


*marks day in calender red* ;)

He was on my "shill list" for quite some time until I more or less abandoned that list because I turned out to be wrong about other people on it. I heard him say very silly things and consider him, in agreement with many "truthers", to be trouble. No idea what's going on inside his head, but an idiot he is certainly not. If you haven't seen it, check the hardfire episode with him and Gravy. He clearly "won", from a rhetorical point of view.
 
...I heard him say very silly things and consider him, in agreement with many "truthers", to be trouble. No idea what's going on inside his head, but an idiot he is certainly not. ...

Yep! On his blog, jamesfetzer.blogspot.com, I recently found this article by T. Mark Hightower (with Jim Fetzer), a sweeping and accurate critique of the nanothermite paper and claims by Harrit, Jones, AE911T etc. that is very nicely on the mark. I believe I could put my signature under 90% of what they write there. On the other hand, the same article claims "they [the two towers] were destroyed and largely converted into millions of cubic yards of very fine dust", when in fact the towers taken together consisted of only sligtly over 200,000 cubic yards of material, which at most would inflate to twice that much if minced to powder completely. They keenly see the splinters of their opponents' eyes, but fail to check out the huge beams in their own. As late as 10 months ago, Fetzer still enthusiastically and feverently admired, defended and recommended Judy Wood and her latest book which is a whack-a-doodle hodgpodge of insane DEW nonsense. I hope we are on the same page with regard to DEW and Judy Wood? You are not a secret supporter of jammonius?
 
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So in other words, no? You don't have images of the south side of WTC 7 in full flames? You don't have videos of the south view of WTC 7 as it's collapsing? Why do attribute this to truther "trickery"? Do you think truthers have somehow managed to restrict all these images from public view?

Where there is smoke, there is smouldering.

Actually, there is video of the south side, in full flame, recorded from a side view here:

 
Originally Posted by Childlike Empress
You should have done that before you approached him. Not defending his later rudeness, but he's completely right in objecting to your generic "conspiracy theorists say this and that" questions when he himself has published extensively on the topic. You simply didn't meet the standards of academic discussion (both sides are informed about the topic at hand, here Fetzer's stand on 9/11), were insulting his intelligence and wasting his time.
In a rare case of agreement with CE, I had the same impression when I read (I haven't quite managed to prevail against my tl;dr instinct yet, so I should say: part of) that exchange.

That said, Fetzer is still a misguided baffoon and whackjob and quite far out on the loony side :D And too rude too quickly with Brass ;) I guess that went both ways; both parties didn't work particularly hard to avoid escalation and remain civil.

I guess Brass' main tactical mistake was to try to debate Fetzer, when his objective should have been to get a clear, concise version of what one prominent figure of trutherdom claims with regard to the topic of his class paper. He should not have argued against the information Fetzer wanted to convey and instead tried to make sure he reports it faithfully as one side of the issue.

I'm going to agree with you that what CE said is reasonable. It is wrong though. Fetzer is supposed to be acting as an educator. If every time a student disagreed with me I started yelling at them and calling them names, I wouldn't be able to keep my job. And to be honest, he must be used to this by now. He must get this constantly. Typically, someone in his position should have an answer to this by now. The fact that he doesn't seem to know what else except yell and scream makes me wonder if he hasn't figured out what to say to his students when they disagree. In fact, I can imagine that he's very frustrated with being laughed at and being increasingly marginalized. I guess that even people who otherwise agree with him don't want it known that they agree with Jim Fetzer.
 
*marks day in calender red* ;)

He was on my "shill list" for quite some time until I more or less abandoned that list because I turned out to be wrong about other people on it. I heard him say very silly things and consider him, in agreement with many "truthers", to be trouble. No idea what's going on inside his head, but an idiot he is certainly not. If you haven't seen it, check the hardfire episode with him and Gravy. He clearly "won", from a rhetorical point of view.

First off, I love your username. There are not enough Neverending Story references here.

However, I cannot agree with the bolded part. All Fetzer did was talk off of point, jump from topic to topic and call Robert's and Wieck's evidence fabricated because it didn't fit his point of view. He "won" as far as a "Who's Loudest Contest", but did not win the debate about 9/11.
 
I'm going to agree with you that what CE said is reasonable. It is wrong though. Fetzer is supposed to be acting as an educator. If every time a student disagreed with me I started yelling at them and calling them names, I wouldn't be able to keep my job. And to be honest, he must be used to this by now. He must get this constantly. Typically, someone in his position should have an answer to this by now. The fact that he doesn't seem to know what else except yell and scream makes me wonder if he hasn't figured out what to say to his students when they disagree. In fact, I can imagine that he's very frustrated with being laughed at and being increasingly marginalized. I guess that even people who otherwise agree with him don't want it known that they agree with Jim Fetzer.

Neither CE nor I defend Fetzer or his rudeness, quite the contrary.
We merely point out that he is right in one regard, namely that Brass didn't approach him quite as prepared as he should have. That's no excuse to go ballistic, sure, but a valid criticism.
 
Actually, there is video of the south side, in full flame, recorded from a side view here:

While I am a little put off by the anti-Israel tone of the voice-over at the end, I feel that the video record here is quite accurate and good evidence against Da Twoof.

The fires on at least one floor were at total flash-over. We are clearly talking 1000C+. That will destroy the temper of steel. Collapse will follow.
 
Brass, while I just slightly read the exchange, ask him to source this claim of his.

" UL certified the steel used in the buildings to 2,000*F for three or four hours."

Ask him which tests they used, and show that they did this.

I went round and round with him, and he never would answer, nor could he.

I even went so far as to contact UL, and they claimed they never did such a thing, nor would they. I also talked to some of the people I work with in the field, and they had never heard of UL certifying steel to such a degree. Now, SFRM, sure. However, nothing like that was certified for 3-4 hours. It's ALWAYS an exact time and temperature.

SFRM such as Blazeshield, with a 2" application, is 2000 deg. F for 4 hours IIRC.

Exact. Not an estimate, and not a range of time.
 
Neither CE nor I defend Fetzer or his rudeness, quite the contrary.
We merely point out that he is right in one regard, namely that Brass didn't approach him quite as prepared as he should have. That's no excuse to go ballistic, sure, but a valid criticism.

I never said that, and if I did, I'm really really sorry. I just meant to say that for once CE did say something reasonable, although since I have CE on IGNORE, there may have been some other reasonable things I missed.

I meant to criticize Fetzer for the way he treats students. It is not appropriate for an educator to treat students like that just because they disagree with him. He should know how to respond to problems of student disagreement without sounding like an arrogant tit.
 
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While I am a little put off by the anti-Israel tone of the voice-over at the end, I feel that the video record here is quite accurate and good evidence against Da Twoof.

The fires on at least one floor were at total flash-over. We are clearly talking 1000C+. That will destroy the temper of steel. Collapse will follow.

Sorry about that, Representative Press is a political channel. I think there is a legitimate discussion to be had about the political aspects of 9/11, but not on this forum. I just wanted to show that good footage of the fire and that's the only video I have of it.
 
The fires on at least one floor were at total flash-over. We are clearly talking 1000C+. That will destroy the temper of steel. Collapse will follow.

[twoofer_mode]
Wrong! Steel goes from 100% strength to melted with no weakening in between! You shill![/twoofer_mode]
 
" UL certified the steel used in the buildings to 2,000*F for three or four hours."
:dl:

temperature-strength-metals.png
http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/metal-temperature-strength-d_1353.html

Just because someone has a PhD in The History of Art doesn't make them a renaissance painter.

Just because Fetzer has a PhD in the History and Philosophy of Science doesn't mean that he understands what F = ma means or other far more complicated theories and maths let alone an ability to apply them.
 
As someone who has done extensive graduate work in the field of developmental psych (I approach human development and cognition as a developmental constructivist), I believe I am qualified to discuss matters related to my field. However, I also believe my advanced degrees in said field do not give me the credentials to speak as an expert on the collapses of WTC 1, 2 & 7, the science of controlled demolitions, etc.

The same holds true for Mr Fetzer. While he is qualified to speak as an expert on the cognitive aspects of conspiracies and conspiracism, assuming I am not missing something regarding his background, he is just another commoner when it comes to understanding the technical aspects of engineering, physics, demolitions, building collapses, and so on. Unless I am misunderstanding the core content of what comprises a PhD in the history and philosophy of science, Mr Fetzer is best described as a philosopher and not a practitioner when it comes to the "hard" sciences relevant to understanding 9/11.


It looks like I have a different perspective on the exchange between Brass and Mr Fetzer. Based on the OP presented by Brass, from the outset, this clearly was not a PhD to PhD or expert to expert dialogue. It was a student to professor inquiry, ask questions to get answers. Nothing in the initial exchanges would lead Mr Fetzer to conclude Brass was approaching him as an equal in terms of professional/educational qualifications with the prospect of having an intellectual give and take. That said, if I was Mr Fetzer, I would not have expected Brass has read all of my papers/research at that point.

In fact, Brass states as much when he prefaces his initial questions with this: "To be honest, I really don't know if you support these claims, but figured I would ask anyway." Fetzer even urged Brass to send the inquiries knowing the responses were to be used as a "counter argument from the 9/11 "Truth" crowd to Brass's attempt to debunk the 9/11 conspiracy theories. While Brass could have offered more in terms of fully disclosing the depth of his convictions regarding debunking truthers, Fetzer was a willing participant in the agreed upon exchange knowing the facts I have stated above.


As the teacher engaging a skeptical student with his questions, I believe Fetzer should have approached this as an opportunity to convert a "skeptic of the skeptics," to borrow from his own terminology. Rather than give any credence to Brass's skepticism of truther theories as a way for Fetzer to show Brass he was interested in engaging in an intellectual discussion, Fetzer fires this mind closing salvo as if it is "the decided TRUTH":

"Your use of the term "Truthers" in quotes suggests that you are a skeptic of the skeptics, who do not merely doubt but have actually proven that what we have been told about 9/11 is not simply false but provably false and, in at least some cases, not even physically possible because it violates the laws of physics, of engineering, or of aerodynamics. I have published a summary of our findings as "Why Doubt 9/11?...." He then closes with this: "I spent 35 years teach logic, critical thinking, and scientific reasoning."

With these 2 statements, Fetzer has declared: The case is closed and I am on the right side, and remember, I am much more intelligent than you. Brass then fails to obediently bow at the Fetzer alter of truth and superior intelligence and even dares to challenge Fetzer's irrefutable laws of 9/11. Granted, Brass could have definitely used more tact in his rebuttal of Fetzer's answers. As a result, Fetzer feels compelled to resort to demeaning his intellectual inferior with his next response. Keep in mind, this all transpires after a few email exchanges within a few hours (I presume) on New Years Eve of 2010.

"I am going to put this as kindly as I can. One day when you grow up and discover that we were right and you were wrong, you are going to feel very differently about all of this. Your attitude about "Loose Change", for example, illustrates the problem. I was alluding to interviews done with firefighters, which is completely independent of your agreement or lack of agreement with its major themes. The fact that you are not even willing to watch the film speaks volumes. You have been massively duped by the many web sites out there dedicated to keeping the truth from the American people. I knew your attitudes as soon as I read your questions and how you framed them. I am sorry, but you could use a good course in critical thinking.
Best wishes for your project--and I look forward to reading your paper!"


Just my long winded 2 cents, from a life long student and one who has 7+ years of university teaching experience in my past.


What follows in the exchanges a year later is nothing more than a typical truther vs debunker debate with the appropriate jabs and personal insults to which I have nothing to add.
 
You can call him insane or a shill or whatever, an idiot this man is not. And he doesn't suffer idiots lightly.

Actually, in reading the exchange, I see Fetzer as a man completely divorced from reality. He lacks the ability to change and respond to reasoning. He constructs no meaningful arguments. He name-calls and resorts to ad hom attacks. I see no evidence that he is willing or able to accept any information that does not agree with his narrow world view.

If this is not idiocy, what is? Fetzer may be well published, but so was Pauling. Paulings credentials and publication history are surpassed by only a handful of other 20th century scientists, but that does not make him right about vitamin C. He was wrong about that, just like Fetzer is wrong about everything related to 9/11.

To be certain, we're all idiots about something. I know absolutely nothing about molecular biology. But I don't write books with demonstrably false facts about biology, and I don't claim to be an expert. My issue is with a subject matter idiot claiming to be a subject matter expert. Fetzer has neither published, nor worked in, nor acquired the necessary credentials in any of the subject matters related to the construction and destruction of tall buildings. He is as much of an expert in the area as Mark Roberts, but in this one aspect they are different: Mark talked to people who were experts and published their responses. Mark checked and verified his facts, and they remain verifiable, referenceable facts tot his day. Fetzer, when presented with painful, obvious inaccuracies in his work, resorts to name calling. When called out on his BS, he just moves on to the next statement.

What on Earth shall we call this behavior? What do we call someone who refuses to listen to any contrary reason or opinion? What do we do with someone who so obstinately clings to a distorted version of reality? What do you say to convince someone of something of which they cannot be convinced?

I call them idiots, and I ignore them. When they go away, they take their idiocy with them.
 

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