Muslims Self-Criticism

[Beerina]

What, you mean like being black in Texas won't get you dragged to death behind a pickup truck (Byrd) or beaten to death (Tarron Dixon)? Or being 'gay' won't get you crucified in Wyoming, like Matthew Shepard?

There's always *someone* willing to kill over some perceived insult or infraction. It's just too bad so many believe their 'omnipotent' gods are so impotent that they must take the moral law into their own hands.

It would be nice if people would just let omnipotent God murder his own political enemies, wouldn't it? Does he really need decidedly finite mortals to do this?

 

[Beerina]

Heck, Saddam was still our good friend when he gassed the Kurds. Iraq had routinely used chemical weapons against Iran, which didn't matter, because Iran was the bad guy. Saddam would still be our good friend if he hadn't grabbed for Kuwait.

Anyone recall us struggling to maintain he was the good guy after Iraq "accidentally" launched a French Exocet missle into one of our ships 15 years ago?

How about all those clerics who want to establish theocracy with themselves speaking for God? Seems like political ambition more than religious ambition to me.

Which, of course, is what this is all really about. Political = religious ambition in most of the world, and most of human history. It's just that the West has spent the last 250 years beating Christianity into a corner until it's just another harmless lifestyle choice.

concede that elements within Islam play a role in recruiting, training and managing terrorists, but no more so than elements of Chrisitianity are to blame for abortion bombers. If you want to blame ALL Islam, then blame ALL Christianity.

Except that the last time there was any mildly serious Christian "thingy" at the US national level, it was people protesting The Last Temptation of Christ 15 years ago. And that immediately got mocked viciously on Saturday Night Live. Note: The president and all major religious leaders didn't immediately demand the execution of Victoria Jackson and Dennis Miller.

 

[The Fool]

Well, also, The Fool said "can you even tell me how big it is right now?" A map showing it in relation to Australia is quite a reasonable reaction to that question.

so do you want to stick your neck out and tell us all what are the actual borders of Israel? This is one extremely elastic nation....do you know where its borders lie??

 

[The Fool]

For starters, this map of yours comes from a proposal put forth at the Paris Peace Conference of 1919. IIRC, when the issue was raised previously your comment was something like, ”I've seen the map, no room for the Palestinians anywhere.” (that's a paraphrase, I'm too lazy to look up the actual words you used.)

In looking at the map, you apparently ignored the text that went with it. Text that includes the following words:


Notice in proposing a Jewish National Home, they use language that specifically says it will not be exclusively Jewish, and that this proposed commonwealth will protect both the political and religious rights of non-Jews. This idea was important enough they said it twice:


So “the plan” at least as stated in Paris in 1919, was for an independent commonwealth including both Arabs and Jews.

As usual you seek to try to lecture me on something irrelevant. you cannot find a single zionist position that advocates anything other than occupying the entire british mandate. Instead you repeat thier pathetic platitudes that when they have all the land they promise to be nice to the original population.....
So have you officially given up looking for an alternate zionist position to the one you claim I "cherry picked"?

 

[The Fool]

Why don't you guys just come out and say it already, you would like Israel removed from the middle east and there isn't a thing on Earth Israel could do that would make you accept it's exsistence, that would be so much more nobel than beating around the bush with innuendo, stale propoganada and sarcasm.

and why don't you just come out and admit you like to wear womens underwear????
your need to retreat to straw man bashing whenever you can't answer a question is becoming boring.

you cannot tell me what are the current borders of Israel
you cannot tell me what you think is the limit to Israels expansion.
you will support Israel in taking whatever land it likes off whoever it likes for whatever reason it likes.....With enough people like you to provide unquestioning support Sharon can do pretty much anything he likes.

 

[zenith-nadir]

you cannot tell me what are the current borders of Israel

Ever heard of a map? They've been making them for centuries, even Australia has a map the fool. Israel's is easily found, it will show you current borders.

you cannot tell me what you think is the limit to Israels expansion.

I don't think Israel is expanding, it gave the Sinai back to Egypt for peace... so it contracted. It will soon give up Gaza... so it shall contract more. When the Palestinian Authority reforms, stops trying to kill Israelis and each other, Israel will have to give up the west bank... and contract even further. Where is this alledged expansion you speak of endlessly?

you will support Israel in taking whatever land it likes off whoever it likes for whatever reason it likes

See the reply above.

....With enough people like you to provide unquestioning support Sharon can do pretty much anything he likes.

I'll tell ya what, if I had to bet who has done more damage to the Palestinians - 30 years of Arafat or 3 years of Sharon - I would put my money on Arafat....but Sharon is always responsible, don't forget the mantra.

 

[epepke]

so do you want to stick your neck out and tell us all what are the actual borders of Israel? This is one extremely elastic nation....do you know where its borders lie??

Not without a map, and apparently you consider maps "irrelevant images."

 

[E.J.Armstrong]

originally posted by MycroftSorry E.J., all of your questions can be answered easily by referring back to the posts that spawned them. If you refuse to even attempt to use your own intellect to discern the answerers, then that's your choice. I'm sorry if you think it's unfair that I refuse to do your thinking for you.

Once again this is a falsehood and as usual your argument seems to be unable stand on its own without ad hominem abuse.

You deliberately made allegations concerning an as yet unidentified tiny group.

You have been asked on many occasions to define exactly who you are talking about. You have persistently refused to do so.

Sceptics and people who are interested in the truth normally are completely happy to define the terms in their claims and allegations.

You won't.

Perhaps there are other sites where they won't ask you to justify your bizarre claims?

 

[The Fool]

Not without a map, and apparently you consider maps "irrelevant images."

use any damn map you like.... Just make sure its detailed enough to show the actual border...not just a presentation graphic showing a vague outline....

The problem is that Israel has no borders that the government, or the Zionists on this board, are willing to commit to. If you don't believe me, try asking them...Its quite amusing. You will recieve a lecture on a wide variety of irrelevant stuff but there will be nothing in there about where the legitimate borders lie.

Is it the 48 borders? Is it the green line? Is it now the path of the wall? What of the settlements and outposts are they inside or outside Israel? what about the "Israeli only" roads that criss-cross the west bank. Are they part of Israel?


The plain fact is that those on this board that throw skepticism out the window and simply award thier unquestioning support to anything and everything that Sharons government wants to do are simply unable to draw a border. To do so would mean that when the Expansion of israel crossed that line they would be in an impossible position, having to disagree with an action of an Israeli government working towards the goal of occupation of all the lands given to them by thier god. This is simply not allowed.

 

[The Fool]

I don't think Israel is expanding, it gave the Sinai back to Egypt for peace... so it contracted.

do you believe the sinai was part of Israel?



It will soon give up Gaza... so it shall contract more.

Do you believe Gaza is part of Israel?


When the Palestinian Authority reforms, stops trying to kill Israelis and each other, Israel will have to give up the west bank... and contract even further.

If "giving up" the west bank would make Israel "contract even further" does this indicate you believe the west bank to be part of Israel?



[/B]

Can you stop talking about Arafat for a few minutes ZN.... I'm trying to find out what you think is inside Israel and what you think is outside Israel...This post indicates some rather bizzare beliefs....

 

[Mycroft]

As usual you seek to try to lecture me on something irrelevant...

Ooh, tinfoil hat time again. Sorry, I thought for a moment there you expressed an interest in looking at and discussing historical data that showed a different side from your favored position. I see I was mistaken.

 

[Mycroft]

Once again this is a falsehood and as usual your argument seems to be unable stand on its own without ad hominem abuse.

E.J., there is no argument. You aksed some questions, I told you to go look them up and figure them out for yourself. Again, I'm sorry if being asked to do simple thinking on your own upsets you. I did offer to help, but apparently you declined.

 

[zenith-nadir]

Can you stop talking about Arafat for a few minutes ZN.... I'm trying to find out what you think is inside Israel and what you think is outside Israel...This post indicates some rather bizzare beliefs....

I believe I can look at many maps and see the borders of Israel. I can also see disputed territories and the surrounding countries that ring Israel. There is no mystery, there is no conspiracy.

Almost every map does not jive with your "Israeli expansion" conspiracy theory or your and a_u_p's "biblical borders of Israel" conspiracy theory. That is why you are making such a fuss over maps.

 

[a_unique_person]

I believe I can look at many maps and see the borders of Israel. I can also see disputed territories and the surrounding countries that ring Israel. There is no mystery, there is no conspiracy.

Almost every map does not jive with your "Israeli expansion" conspiracy theory or your and a_u_p's "biblical borders of Israel" conspiracy theory. That is why you are making such a fuss over maps.

There is no conspiracy. It is a very public policy, and the current map of settlements and opposition to removing the settlements in Gaza only confirm it.

 

[zenith-nadir]

There is no conspiracy. It is a very public policy, and the current map of settlements and opposition to removing the settlements in Gaza only confirm it.

Well since this *is* a skeptics board your "word" is not good enough to prove a policy for Israel's government. Care to provide the d-o-c-u-m-e-n-t-a-t-i-o-n for this "very public policy".

And I love the "removing the settlements in Gaza only confirm it"....removing settlements confirms Israel's expansion policy.....brilliant!

 

[demon]

Israel will "soon give up Gaza"? Don`t people "give up" things that they own/possess? Is that how you see it ZN?

 

[zenith-nadir]

Israel will "soon give up Gaza"? Don`t people "give up" things that they own/possess? Is that how you see it ZN?

In case you missed it Demon Gaza is occupied by Israel, it is not part of Israel, nor it is not Israeli land. In order to unoccupy Gaza Israel must give it up. Ironically Gaza is e-g-y-p-t-i-a-n land and has been e-g-y-p-t-i-a-n land for all of recorded history.

 

[demon]

ZN:
"In case you missed it Demon Gaza is occupied by Israel, it is not part of Israel, nor it is not Israeli land. In order to unoccupy Gaza Israel must give it up. Ironically Gaza is e-g-y-p-t-i-a-n land and has been e-g-y-p-t-i-a-n land for all of recorded history."

I-s-r-a-el occupies G-a-z-a? Surely not, wouldn`t that mean it had to follow the G-e-n-e-v-a C-o-n-v-e-n-t-i-o-n-s in respect to o-c-c-u-p-i-e-r-s?
Bet it has something to do with that A-r-a-f-a-t fellow that they don`t. Whatya think?
C-h-e-r-c-h-e-z l-e A-r-a-f-a-t?

 

[zenith-nadir]

I-s-r-a-el occupies G-a-z-a? Surely not, wouldn`t that mean it had to follow the G-e-n-e-v-a C-o-n-v-e-n-t-i-o-n-s in respect to o-c-c-u-p-i-e-r-s? Bet it has something to do with that A-r-a-f-a-t fellow that they don`t. Whatya think? C-h-e-r-c-h-e-z l-e A-r-a-f-a-t?

See this is where your argument breaks down.

The convention does not apply to the West Bank and the Gaza Strip because those areas never belonged to a state that signed the Geneva Convention.

Secondly, the Palestinian Authority, Hamas, Islamic Jihad, Al Aksa, PLFP, PLO and Fateh have never signed the Geneva Convention, in fact they reject it and only use the Geneva Convention for political purposes.

Once the Palestinian Authority, Hamas, Islamic Jihad, Al Aksa, PLFP, PLO and Fateh sign the Geneva Convention and once the Palestinian Authority has legal rights to the land then the Geneva Convention will apply.

(edited to add)

Hypothetically....I have a car but refuse to sign the insurance policy. If I get into an accident does that mean I can file an insurance claim or rely on an insurance policy? No I can't.

 

[The Fool]

I believe I can look at many maps and see the borders of Israel. I can also see disputed territories and the surrounding countries that ring Israel. There is no mystery, there is no conspiracy.

Almost every map does not jive with your "Israeli expansion" conspiracy theory or your and a_u_p's "biblical borders of Israel" conspiracy theory. That is why you are making such a fuss over maps.

show me one....just one map of israel that you agree accurately documents its current borders.
I know you "believe" you can do this, you can even claim you can do it if you like.....until you do its just more of the same hot air.

Israel has no borders, it simply has not yet finished taking the land it wants, the land a god has promised . You will support them in whatever god promised land they want to take. You can't ever agree on a fixed border because then you would have to explain the taking of more land in excess of those borders.

do you realise how silly this makes you look....being unable to answer such a simple question as where do Israels legitimate borders lie?