Muslims Self-Criticism

[Mycroft]

What do I do Mycroft? Quote the founding fathers of the Zionist movement saying all the things you don't like to hear?

The funny thing is that I don't even try to make conclusions based on the words, the words specifically state something that you claim is no longer applicable (the zionist goals of the ultimate size of Israel).....why its no longer applicable or what its been replaced with is something that many have tried to pry out of you without success. Don't suppose you want to have another chop at it??

See? Tinfoil hat time.

 

[The Fool]

See? Tinfoil hat time.

Whats the conspiracy theory?...That the stated goals of the Zionist movements founders are still the goals of the zionist movement???? Wow...I'm really going to wild extremes with that one eh? Whats next...the outrageous claim that the Stated goals of the founders of the USA are still the goals of the USA today?

But anyway...your sidestep was fun to watch...ever considered becoming a running back?

 

[Mycroft]

Whats the conspiracy theory?...That the stated goals of the Zionist movements founders are still the goals of the zionist movement???? Wow...I'm really going to wild extremes with that one eh?

Yes. When you consider that the “founders of Zionism” were a pretty diverse bunch representing a large number of differing political and religious viewpoints each with their own ideas on what their goals were and how to accomplish them including some that didn't even want a nationalist state, and when you consider the political turmoil the region experienced over the 100 years or so, cherry-picking a few statements and claiming they represent all of Zionism then and now is ill informed at best and very much the modus operandi of lunatic conspiracy theorists.

 

[The Fool]

Yes. When you consider that the “founders of Zionism” were a pretty diverse bunch representing a large number of differing political and religious viewpoints each with their own ideas on what their goals were and how to accomplish them including some that didn't even want a nationalist state, and when you consider the political turmoil the region experienced over the 100 years or so, cherry-picking a few statements and claiming they represent all of Zionism then and now is ill informed at best and very much the modus operandi of lunatic conspiracy theorists.

Maybe thats why they had conferences to establish thier positions on these matters....but I guess thats still not representative enough for you.

So help me avoid cherry picking Mycroft....tell me what the justifiable limit is to Israels expansion....I have only ever seen one and that is the limit set by what thier god promised them. Do you want to propose an alternate to gods promise? Do you even want to have a dash at telling me what are the current borders of Israel??? If you can't say how far Israel should be allowed to swell can you even tell me how big it is right now??

 

[zenith-nadir]

...tell me what the justifiable limit is to Israels expansion....I have only ever seen one and that is the limit set by what thier god promised them. Do you want to propose an alternate to gods promise? Do you even want to have a dash at telling me what are the current borders of Israel??? If you can't say how far Israel should be allowed to swell can you even tell me how big it is right now??

(images courtesy of iris.org and jewishvirtuallibrary.org)

 

[The Fool]

(images courtesy of iris.org and jewishvirtuallibrary.org)

Care to tell me why you are spamming the thread with irrelevant images?

Unless that vague outline is what you are suggesting is the legitimate ultimate borders of Israel....Is that what you are saying?

 

[a_unique_person]

Care to tell me why you are spamming the thread with irrelevant images?

Unless that vague outline is what you are suggesting is the legitimate ultimate borders of Israel....Is that what you are saying?

They are totally relevant. The UN should vote to give Israel Lebanon as well. Only seems fair. Or Australia could given them the part of the Simpson Desert. That's pretty big.

 

[The Fool]

They are totally relevant. The UN should vote to give Israel Lebanon as well. Only seems fair. Or Australia could given them the part of the Simpson Desert. That's pretty big.

No way....Australia should only give away surplus unproductive wasteland...like Victoria.

 

[a_unique_person]

No way....Australia should only give away surplus unproductive wasteland...like Victoria.

Fine by me, we're all moving to Queensland anyway.

 

[Mycroft]

Maybe thats why they had conferences to establish thier positions on these matters....but I guess thats still not representative enough for you.

Yes, they did have conferences. Endless conferences. Conferences spanning decades, where they were constantly re-hashing old issues, amending plans, and arguing. You know, politics as normal just like any democratic body anywhere on Earth.

The reason I call you a tin-foil hat conspiracy theorist is you don't pay any attention to that. You cherry-pick your quote, assume it was the result of some congress the details of which exist only in your imagination, and then assume the result was unchanging forever. Politics doesn't work like that anywhere else, why would you assume it does for Zionists?

 

[The Fool]

Yes, they did have conferences. Endless conferences. Conferences spanning decades, where they were constantly re-hashing old issues, amending plans, and arguing. You know, politics as normal just like any democratic body anywhere on Earth.

The reason I call you a tin-foil hat conspiracy theorist is you don't pay any attention to that. You cherry-pick your quote, assume it was the result of some congress the details of which exist only in your imagination, and then assume the result was unchanging forever. Politics doesn't work like that anywhere else, why would you assume it does for Zionists?

Well if I am cherry picking I'm assuming you have to pick cherries from among other cherries....so show me a single example of the cherries I am avoiding. Show me an example of this great variety of zionist positions that you say exist......Believe me I have searched hard for them. If I am cherry picking quotes show me some other cherries that I am avoiding. too much to ask? Even your own answer to the question of what is the reasonable limit of Israeli expansion would be a start.....

 

[zenith-nadir]

Care to tell me why you are spamming the thread with irrelevant images? Unless that vague outline is what you are suggesting is the legitimate ultimate borders of Israel....Is that what you are saying?

And that's how it works folks. The fool assures every one of you that the current borders of Israel are not the "ultimate borders of Israel" and the the current borders of Israel do not take in account the "limit is to Israels expansion" all without a shred of evidence for those claims. Not a single shred...because that's all they are...the fool's claims. So when I post images of the relative size of Israel compared to Australia and the eastern US the fool calls those images "spamming" and "irrelevant"...in an effort to dismiss them as they run contrary to the propaganda he is selling.

Then like clockwork the other Australian, a_u_p pipes in;

Originally posted by a_unique_person
They are totally relevant. The UN should vote to give Israel Lebanon as well. Only seems fair. Or Australia could given them the part of the Simpson Desert. That's pretty big.

Why don't you guys just come out and say it already, you would like Israel removed from the middle east and there isn't a thing on Earth Israel could do that would make you accept it's exsistence, that would be so much more nobel than beating around the bush with innuendo, stale propoganada and sarcasm.

 

[a_unique_person]

Then like clockwork the other Australian, a_u_p pipes in;Why don't you guys just come out and say it already, you would like Israel removed from the middle east and there isn't a thing on Earth Israel could do that would make you accept it's exsistence, that would be so much more nobel than beating around the bush with innuendo, stale propoganada and sarcasm.

Fool wasn't sarcastic, I was. And I don't think that, I've already said what I think, but it doesn't matter how many times I've said it, I still get accused of this lie.

 

[E.J.Armstrong]

originally posted by zenith-nadir
I am speaking about all muslims who refer to jews as zionists so that they can sneak under the anti-semitism radar because they strategically use the term "zionist" instead of "jew".
Like when the Iranian judoka refused to face the Israeli from the "zionist regime" at the Olympics. Like how Abdul-Aziz al-Khayat in the article I quoted said Palestinian resistance against "Zionist terrorism" is one that we demand, bless and sanction. Like how Hamas, Hezbollah and Islamic Jihad call Israel the "zionist entity"....

So you weren't speaking about all muslims. I'm glad you eventually clarified that important point.

 

[zenith-nadir]

Fool wasn't sarcastic, I was. And I don't think that, I've already said what I think, but it doesn't matter how many times I've said it, I still get accused of this lie.

The only lie is that there are no "ultimate borders of Israel" or "biblical borders of Israel". Israel is smaller than New Jersey and if you consider Israel gave up the Sinai for peace with Egypt and will soon be giving up Gaza as well I'd say the constant alledged "expansion of Israel" argument is kind of a lie too...

 

[E.J.Armstrong]

originally posted by MycroftSorry E.J., referring you back to the original source material was my answer to your questions. If you truly don't understand my words, I'll be more than happy to help you along, but I think it's only reasonable for you to at least attempt to discern the answers through your own cognitive abilities.

When a person asks for clarification about some words a common response is often to clarify. That doesn't seem to be part of your repertoire of responses.

You may have grown used to people coddling you, meeting every request of yours as though you were a baby incapable of doing for yourself, but I think in the long run they do you a disservice this way. If you are old enough to sit at a computer and converse with adults, you are old enough to re-read any statement or paragraph you don't understand, and to try to place it in the context of a larger conversation.

So, when people ask you for clarification, your reponse is essentially no and ad hominem attacks.

I went through a similar issue with my daughter several years ago. She went through a phase where she would continually ask questions where the answer was annoyingly obvious. If it was raining, she would ask if it was wet. If I turned on the stove, she would ask if it were hot, that sort of thing.

I wonder if that would have anything to do with your refusal to clarify your claims? No wonder the poor girl was confused. I hope you sent her to someone who would take the time to explain what their claims meant.

Perhaps you are now going to tell us who the famous UTG are because real sceptics find defining their terms a useful thing to do.

At first I answered her patiently, but as the trend grew worse I took a new approach; I would answer, ”What's your opinion?” or ”What do you think the answer is?”. Then when she answered correctly, I'd give her a high-five or say something nice. On the few occasions where she really wasn't sure, I'd invite her to think about the answer and discuss it with her. After a while, she stopped asking the really obvious questions, but she still feels comfortable asking about things that might seem silly to some people, and I think that's a good thing.

Are you ever going to explain who the UTG are or is asking you to define your terms something you just don't do?

So in the spirit of love for all mankind, I'll offer you the same deal I give my own children. I won't coddle you by doing what you should be able to do for yourself, but if you tell me what you think the answers to these questions are, I'll certainly let you know if you're right, and be willing to discuss it with you if you're not.

No it seems not. Normally, when person A make a claim it is up to person A to support it. A simple idea, isn't it?

Are you ever going to define who your unidentified tiny group (UTG) actually are?

 

[Mycroft]

Originally posted by E.J.Armstrong
When a person asks for clarification about some words a common response is often to clarify. That doesn't seem to be part of your repertoire of responses.

Sorry E.J., all of your questions can be answered easily by referring back to the posts that spawned them. If you refuse to even attempt to use your own intellect to discern the answerers, then that's your choice. I'm sorry if you think it's unfair that I refuse to do your thinking for you.

 

[Mycroft]

Well if I am cherry picking I'm assuming you have to pick cherries from among other cherries....so show me a single example of the cherries I am avoiding...

For starters, this map of yours comes from a proposal put forth at the Paris Peace Conference of 1919. IIRC, when the issue was raised previously your comment was something like, ”I've seen the map, no room for the Palestinians anywhere.” (that's a paraphrase, I'm too lazy to look up the actual words you used.)

In looking at the map, you apparently ignored the text that went with it. Text that includes the following words:

Palestine shall be placed under such political, administrative and economic conditions as will secure the establishment there of the Jewish National Home, and ultimately render possible the creation of an autonomous Commonwealth, it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country.

Notice in proposing a Jewish National Home, they use language that specifically says it will not be exclusively Jewish, and that this proposed commonwealth will protect both the political and religious rights of non-Jews. This idea was important enough they said it twice:

There shall be for ever the fullest freedom of religious worship for all creeds in Palestine. There shall be no discrimination among the inhabitants with regard to citizenship and civil rights, on the grounds of religion, or of race.

So “the plan” at least as stated in Paris in 1919, was for an independent commonwealth including both Arabs and Jews.

 

[epepke]

And that's how it works folks. The fool assures every one of you that the current borders of Israel are not the "ultimate borders of Israel" and the the current borders of Israel do not take in account the "limit is to Israels expansion" all without a shred of evidence for those claims. Not a single shred...because that's all they are...the fool's claims. So when I post images of the relative size of Israel compared to Australia and the eastern US the fool calls those images "spamming" and "irrelevant"...in an effort to dismiss them as they run contrary to the propaganda he is selling.

Well, also, The Fool said "can you even tell me how big it is right now?" A map showing it in relation to Australia is quite a reasonable reaction to that question.

 

[Beerina]

I would be making out a will if I were in his place, since it's only a matter of time till someone will murder him for claiming Islam is not a religion of peace.

Or for doubting that shooting children in the back is the will of a benevolent god.