Mrs. Piper Mediumship Discussion

[CFLarsen]

Was it a standard ruse of known fake mediums to produce voice communications on one topic and automatic writing on a completely different topic simultaneously?

The ruses do not change into valid forms of spirit communication by being combined. As I said, mediums adapt their techniques to the circumstances. ("Times" was a bad choice of word)

One thing I think would be interesting to do if I had the time is to try to find out if in the annals of psychopathology anything similar has been reported, i.e., one individual simultaneously producing information on one topic through voice and information on a completely different topic through writiing. I mean whether or not this phenomenon has ever been recorded apart from a spiritistic framework.

Why? You still lack the verification that the medium is unconscious.

Again, you shift focus away from the damning (lack of) facts, and go elsewhere to seek an explanation. You do realize this, don't you?

I wouldn't use the term, "worthless." I would say that one could still devise explanations based on an indidivual's self-reporting of his or her own state, but that nailing these explanatons down with the hard science of EEG tracings would likely be problematic. I don't think I know enough about this area to comment any further than that.

But we know that people are not very reliable when it comes to describing their own state. That, in itself, would require that they are conscious.

How are you going to get an unconscious person to communicate their state? You would never know if someone was unconscious, because they could simply be conscious and not answer your question. Does that render them unconscious?

I don't know if an EEG would show any change or not, but it is one of the few things about mediumship (and related phenomena) that can -possibly- be measured in a controlled setting...and replicated...so I still think it would be interesting to see if any unusual patterns turned up or not.

Schwartz used EEGs (and ECGs) in his Arizona Abominations, but only compared them to the sitters' readings. However, he did not mention any deviation in the readings of the mediums.

Granted, the mediums did not claim to go into a trance.

 

[Mike D.]

Why? You still lack the verification that the medium is unconscious.

Again, you shift focus away from the damning (lack of) facts, and go elsewhere to seek an explanation. You do realize this, don't you?

I just think it would be interesting to read about, and no, I am not trying to shift the focus away from damning or lack of facts. I deny this categorically.

 

[Mike D.]

But we know that people are not very reliable when it comes to describing their own state. That, in itself, would require that they are conscious.

How are you going to get an unconscious person to communicate their state? You would never know if someone was unconscious, because they could simply be conscious and not answer your question. Does that render them unconscious?

I can tell you that when I once had an operation under genereal anesthesia I was unconscious during that time and remember nothing of the operation. Are you highly suspicious that my statement is unreliable? Is my statement "worthless" as a description of my state at that time?

 

[Clancie]

Posted by Mike D

I just think it would be interesting to read about, and no, I am not trying to shift the focus away from damning or lack of facts. I deny this categorically.

I haven't seen the slightest indication of that at all, in any of your posts, Mike. And I know you're not a "believer" either--but that you're genuinely interested in the various aspects and possibilities of mediumship and have an interest in detail that leads you to really research things and--that other intellectual asset--a genuinely inquiring mind.

But...I digress....

re: Piper's trance state. Actually, while I feel it would be interesting to me to -know- if brain waves change during a trance and if an EEG could consistently meaure that....in reality, I'm not sure it really matters to mediumship whether a trance state is a measurable state of "altered consciousness" or not.

Ultimately, I think the issue I might look at most in a reading isn't if someone is or isn't in trance but if we can (1) rule out cheating; (2) examine the information that comes through and eliminate things that would be consistent with cold reading; then (3) see if the accurate information that is left makes more sense as lucky guesses...sitter buy-in....super psi....spirit communication...or some combination thereof?

My impression from both Braude and Gauld is that if you accept that cheating has been ruled out, and you rule out things that look like cold reading, the information that is left is more consistent with super psi or spirit communication than with the other possibilities.

 

[CFLarsen]

I just think it would be interesting to read about, and no, I am not trying to shift the focus away from damning or lack of facts. I deny this categorically.

OK, fine. But I still maintain that there is not much point (then) in seeking evidence elsewhere, since we don't even know what state the mediums were in, when "tested".

You are basing your search on an unknown piece of information. You even admit this.

I can tell you that when I once had an operation under genereal anesthesia I was unconscious during that time and remember nothing of the operation. Are you highly suspicious that my statement is unreliable? Is my statement "worthless" as a description of my state at that time?

No, I would consider your statement to be highly reliable, and for one reason only: You were made unconscious, artificially. We know anesthesia works very well, modern surgery is based on the knowledge that we can cut up people in atrocious ways without them feeling a thing. And I use that word "atrocious" deliberately. Ever seen a hip replacement operation? Or a heart transplant? That's atrocious!

As for trance states? Unless we get a brain scan, we cannot know anything.

How are you going to get an unconscious person to communicate their state?

 

[Kopji]

Mike & Clancie
hi, thanks for the reply.
Makes sense I guess. Maybe I am oversensitive to the mentally ill being used by well-meaning people for their own purposes. A concern is that we should be aware of 'three sides': "Supporters", "critics", and "hers". I do not see anything yet that indicates her mental condition could not be taken advantage of by any one of the other 'sides'.

She suffered a physical accident, went for help from a spiritual healer and ended up in a trance instead. The trances were associated with pain, and testers seemed to not have many qualms about inflicting more pain on her to 'test' the trance.

I find this to be a disturbing lack of ethics which may reflect a character flaw in the 'investigators' and also her 'supporters'.

A couple things I have questions on:

One of the principle 'skeptics' who followed her around was named Hodgson. Although always presented as a critic, after his death extremely detailed personal records of all previous sitters were discovered in his possession. These were all returned to the sitters. Do any of these records survive? how do we know the information was not somehow, knowingly or not, fed to Mrs Piper?

Stated all information she divulged was known by at least one person present. This seems a source of the telepathy debate. A central point who may have had all information may have been Hodgson.

The 'control' change from an individual to a group seems coincident with the death of Hodgson. Was it approximately the same time period? (Should be able to see where I'm going with this.)

I'm confused by varying characterizations of the 'Imperator' control change. Some supporters portrayed this as sort of a golden age, and some as 'nonsense'.

http://www.survivalafterdeath.org/a...ywood/piper.htm
Ultimately G.P. was replaced as Mrs Piper's main control by a band of purported VIPs who unfortunately talked a lot of nonsense. One of them, for instance, who claimed to be George Eliot, said she had met Adam Bede.

Later in life she did not do any 'mediumship', but became what was considered an excellent spiritual counselor in her own right. Her normal untranced skills were "just like" she were channeling advice while not in a trance state. I know of several instances where someone in a religious environment 'got better' after making certain changes in their life. The pattern is familiar. Why not here?

 

[Mike D.]

How are you going to get an unconscious person to communicate their state?

Obviously, an unconscious person is unable to communicate their state while unconscious. But they can report upon regaining consciousness and being told of what transpired while they were "out," that they remember nothing of it and seem to have "lost time."

 

[Mike D.]

Stated all information she divulged was known by at least one person present. This seems a source of the telepathy debate. A central point who may have had all information may have been Hodgson.

Kopji,

Well, there were a number of other people besides Hodgson who investigated her extensively.

I'm not sure exactly what you are getting at here. Certainly any investigator who kept careful records of his tests of Mrs. Piper would be intimately aware of what went on during the tests. But they would have not gone into the tests knowing in advance what she would divulge. And of course there were many proxy sittings done where sitters introduced under false names who were brought to her to sit as proxies for other sitters who were completely blinded to the medium and were not even present at the seance.

Mike

 

[Mike D.]

One of the principle 'skeptics' who followed her around was named Hodgson. Although always presented as a critic, after his death extremely detailed personal records of all previous sitters were discovered in his possession. These were all returned to the sitters. Do any of these records survive? how do we know the information was not somehow, knowingly or not, fed to Mrs Piper?

Kopji,

I don't know anything about these records. And have never read anyone claim that Hodgson was anything other than scrupulous about keeping Mrs. Piper ignorant of anything about the sitters used in his tests.

As for Hodgson, he was known as an extreme skeptic and acnowledged expert in fraud and the exposure of fradulent mediums. When he first undertook to test Mrs. Piper, he was confident she would be next on his list of exposures. But over a period of time in working with her he gradually came to feel that it was likely that she had genuine anomalous cognitive abilities.

Mike

 

[The Mighty Thor]

I've heard of networks of psychics who swap information on sitters via 'blue books'. If the Sutton's were regular attenders of other mediums, I think this means that them being introduced 'anonymously' is suspect, especially if the family have taken along artifacts. Most kids want to put buttons and stuff in their mouths. I smell fraud.

malc

 

[Mike D.]

Kopji,

Regarding what you referred to above as the "telepathy debate," the super-psi hypothesis says that a medium need not be picking up information telepathically from someone literally present at the seance. It says that mediums could be accessing information about the deceased that is present in the minds of anyone anywhere.

Mike

 

[Clancie]

Darat,

I just looked through Braude. His transcript is of a much longer (and overlapping) part of the Kakie reading but has no ellipses and from his comments it seems that, unlike Gauld, his excerpt is unedited (at least as far as it goes).

However, it is still typed/paragraphed as in the much-shorter Gauld example above, and takes up over three pages--with no interruptions from Braude.

So, too long, I think, to transcribe here and be readable. Braude uses some bolding to help make things clearer, but that still wouldn't be helpful enough if one didn't have a printed text to look at.

Anyway, at least we -do- have relatively easy access via Braude to an unedited part of the reading (from the very beginning and extending over three uninterrupted pages).

 

[Mike D.]

Kopji,

Here is a summary I wrote of the material covered by Stephen Braude in his introduction to Mrs. Piper in his book, Immortal Remains. I'm copying it here in hopes that the chronological information in it might help with your questions. Remember, I'm just summarizing the material I read in Braude, not offering my personal opinions.

Mike

Braude begins this section by saying: “Perhaps no case of mediumship is stronger or more thoroughly documented than that of Mrs. Leonora E. Piper (1857-1950)."

Mrs. Piper began practicing mediumship in 1884. She had fallen into a trance while visiting a “healing medium” while seeking relief from a physical problem she had at the time. People reported that evidential messages purporting to come from deceased individuals came through Mrs. Piper while in trance, and her career as a medium was launched.

Mrs. Piper’s mediumship involved her allegedly being taken over by “spirit controls” who would act in a “master of ceremonies” capacity and also relay messages from the spirits of deceased friends and relatives of the sitters at Mrs. Piper’s séances. Among her first controls were a group of “spirits” that were considered to be unconvincing as to their being actual spirits of the dead. These early controls were soon supplanted by a control named Dr. Phinuit, who claimed to be the spirit of a deceased French physician. Phinuit was Mrs. Piper’s principal control until 1892. Although Phinuit often communicated startlingly evidential material during séances, he was unable to provide convincing evidence that he himself was who he claimed to be. For one thing, he knew little French, and for another, investigation turned up no historical record of such a person having ever existed.

In 1892, Dr. Phinuit was gradually replaced by a new control, “G. P.” (George Pellew). Ulike Dr. Phinuit and Mrs. Piper’s earlier controls, GP’s former earthly existence was easily verified, as he had been an acquaintance of Richard Hodgson, one of the investigators of Mrs. Piper. And GP gave striking evidence that was highly suggestive of his actually being who he said he was. However, this evidence was not totally conclusive, because in his earthly life, GP was highly knowledgeable in the fields of literature and philosophy, but during séances was unable to speak in-depth about these fields if the knowledge required went beyond Mrs. Piper’s own knowledge of these subjects.

Near the end of Dr. Phinuit’s reign, sometimes he would communicate through Mrs. Piper by voice while another communicator would simultaneously communicate through Mrs. Piper’s hand by means of automatic writing.

In 1897, GP was supplanted by a group of “high spirits” who acted as Mrs. Piper’s controls and would discourse at length on religious, philosophical and (pseudo)scientific topics. There was much less emphasis during this period on bringing through evidential messages from deceased friends and loved ones.

In 1905, following the death of Richard Hodgson, a communicator purporting to be Hodgson’s spirit began frequently communicating as a control of Mrs. Piper and the communications once again reverted back to taking the form of providing evidential communications from deceased friends and loved ones of sitters.

Around 1909, Mrs. Piper found it increasingly difficult to go into trance for the purpose of producing voice communications, and in 1911, these communications stopped altogether. But Mrs. Piper was still able to do automatic writing, and eventually was one of the mediums involved the famous “cross correspondences” case, which Braude discusses later.

Braude concludes this section by discussing the group of distinguished investigators who studied Mrs. Piper’s mediumship. These include, among others, individuals of the stature of psychologist William James, as well as Richard Hodgson. When Hodgson began studying Mrs. Piper in 1887, he had already become well known as an extreme skeptic and acknowledged expert in detecting fraud. Indeed, Hodgson had a reputation for mercilessly exposing fraudulent mediums. Hodgson and other investigators took pains to institute rigorous controls to guard against fraud on the part of Mrs. Piper. These included selecting sitters at random, introducing them under pseudonyms, and also conducting “proxy sittings.” Mrs. Piper was also taken to England where she’d never been and apparently knew no one, but continued to produce evidential material there. In addition, Hodgson had her trailed by private detectives. Mrs. Piper always freely cooperated with investigators and was never detected in fraud.

Most investigators who studied Mrs. Piper’s mediumship concluded that something paranormal was going on in her best work, but they were not in agreement over which paranormal explanation was best. Some, like Hodgson, were ultimately convinced of survival by Mrs. Piper’s mediumship. Others wondered whether telepathy or super psi type explanations might better fit the evidence.

 

[Mike D.]

I've heard of networks of psychics who swap information on sitters via 'blue books'. If the Sutton's were regular attenders of other mediums, I think this means that them being introduced 'anonymously' is suspect, especially if the family have taken along artifacts. Most kids want to put buttons and stuff in their mouths. I smell fraud.

malc

malc,

While I've never heard anyone make allegations that Mrs. Piper was part of a "blue book" network, one possibility that -was- raised is known as the "grapevine theory." It is that Mrs. Piper may have gradually over time naturally, and without necessarily intending to commit fraud, pick up facts about potential sitters in the Boston area where she lived, only to have these facts come out during seances. Alan Gauld, in his book, Mediumship and Survival, has this to say about the grapevine theory (page 37):

The chief investigators in the Piper case were well aware of the dangers in question, and made every effort to avert them by anonymously bringing to her a substantial sprinkling of sitters from as far afield as possible, and by taking her on several extended trips to England.

Mike

 

[The Mighty Thor]

malc,

While I've never heard anyone make allegations that Mrs. Piper was part of a "blue book" network, one possibility that -was- raised is known as the "grapevine theory." It is that Mrs. Piper may have gradually over time naturally, and without necessarily intending to commit fraud, pick up facts about potential sitters in the Boston area where she lived, only to have these facts come out during seances. Alan Gauld, in his book, Mediumship and Survival, has this to say about the grapevine theory (page 37):



Mike

Yep. It is certainly an intriguing case. I hope to see more discussion of it here.

malc

 

[Mike D.]

I'm confused by varying characterizations of the 'Imperator' control change. Some supporters portrayed this as sort of a golden age, and some as 'nonsense'.

Kopji,

Well, I've periodically run into spiritualists (meaning those who fervently believe that the dead regularly speak through mediums and also impart inspired spiritual teachings), who in my opinion are prone to accept at face value anything that comes out of a medium's mouth. While others, even those who think there may sometimes be something genuinely paranormal going on with the best mediums, tend to look at the utterances of mediums much more critically. It would be interesting to look to see which camp your varying sources might fall into.

Personally, I think that any critically thinking person would be likely to reject as "nonsense," for instance, an assertion by a "spirit" that the spirt is George Eliot and has met Adam Bede in the afterlife. But I'm not so sure that one who habitually believed in any and all "spirit utterances," would feel the same way.

In his Mediumship and Survival, Alan Gauld discusses the "nonsense" that was sometimes spoken by the more dubious controls of Mrs. Piper and other mediums (page 115). The controls sometimes excused themselves by saying that controlling the medium's body had a "confusing" effect on them. Gauld says (page 115):

The confusion which obliterates the controls' grasp of science and philosophy does not prevent them from spouting reams of pompous nonsense upon religious and philosophical topics and presenting it as profoundest truth, sometimes in the teeth of the sitters' queries; so that we have to attribute to them not just confusion but downright talespinning...

Mike

 

[The Mighty Thor]

Kopji,

Well, I've periodically run into spiritualists (meaning those who fervently believe that the dead regularly speak through mediums and also impart inspired spiritual teachings), who in my opinion are prone to accept at face value anything that comes out of a medium's mouth. While others, even those who think there may sometimes be something genuinely paranormal going on with the best mediums, tend to look at the utterances of mediums much more critically. It would be interesting to look to see which camp your varying sources might fall into.

Personally, I think that any critically thinking person would be likely to reject as "nonsense," for instance, an assertion by a "spirit" that the spirt is George Eliot and has met Adam Bede in the afterlife. But I'm not so sure that one who habitually believed in any and all "spirit utterances," would feel the same way.

In his Mediumship and Survival, Alan Gauld discusses the "nonsense" that was sometimes spoken by the more dubious controls of Mrs. Piper and other mediums (page 115). The controls sometimes excused themselves by saying that controlling the medium's body had a "confusing" effect on them. Gauld says (page 115):



Mike

Thanks for posting that last bit. It's like asking why Jesus as God didn't reveal that the solar system is heliocentric, or some other astounding scientific revelation. Well, In his 'fully human' guise he couldn't contain all the knowledge that God (omniscient) has.

So, they say . . .

malc

 

[Kopji]

Mike
Thanks,

My sources were all from places that seemed sympathetic to mediumship.

I put a little timeline together to mostly help myself sort things out.

Mrs Piper:
1857 – Born
1879 – (circa) Married at age 22 to William Piper
Started consulting with Dr JR Cooke

1884-1892 Phinuit
1888-1889 – Dr Hyslop joins investigation
Does 88 readings between Nov and Feb (England) whew!
1890 – Olivier Lodge publishes paper in England
1897 – ‘Imperator’ group introduced (more formal and religious)
1901 – ‘Moment of doubt?’
1905 – Dr Hodgson dies unexpectedly in accident
Dr Hyslop fights to release extensive information on sitters, but fails.
1911 – ‘Suspension of mediumship’ predicted by Mrs Piper
1915 – Oliver Lodge son’s death messages (Not sure how she relates to this event)
1950 – died

My question did not really focus on Mrs Piper herself, but on the claims of the skeptical investigators. The 'skeptics' seem to be associated with the same 'Psychical Research' institution. Dr Hodgson is presented as a skeptic of the first order, but he finally accepted that since he could not explain the trances, he accepts that there is survival after death. Now maybe I'm being harsh here, but that sounds like a believer to me.

Since he was a believer, he might also be sympathetic enough to work with one or more of the others in promoting a hoax. It has been stated on several of the medium sites that he was responsible for exposing several fakes. I would be extremely interested in reading any actual accounts, or copies of articles he wrote while in England for the Psychical newsletter. It is hard to nail down what kind of person he actually is.

Consider by the timeline, that he might be one member of a hoax involving at least two people not Mrs Piper. One of the medium's contacts being a close friend of his who recently died is extremely curious.

The Hodgson Fellowship at Harvard
Another attempt to interest the universities in psychical research was made after the death of Dr. Richard Hodgson (1855-1905). Dr. Hodgson was secretary to the American SPR from 1887 until his death, and, as a memorial, a number of his friends established the 'Hodgson Fellowship in Psychical Research,' tenable at Harvard. A fund was raised, but was found insufficient to provide for such a fellowship adequately, and for the expenses likely to be incurred in experiments and investigations. Accordingly, the American SPR, by resolution of its Executive Committee, agreed to contribute the excess over the income from the Hodgson bequest. They guaranteed to augment the fund to $3,000 for the academic years 1922-3 on condition that if the report of the work done should not be published by Harvard University, it could be issued by the American SPR This arrangement was accepted by the University.

Olivier Lodge
Lodge was duped by a fake medium named Eusapia Paladino in 1884. I find his credibility as a skeptic researcher to be low. Here is a list of books he has authored:

Sir Oliver Lodge, F.R.S., D.Sc., LL.D., "Man and The Universe" (Methuen & Co., London, 1908); "The Survival of Man" (Methuen & Co., London, 1909); "Reason and Belief" (Methuen & Co., London, 1910); "Modern Problems" (Methuen & Co., London, 1912); "The Substance of Faith" (Methuen & Co., London, 1915); "Raymond, or Life and Death" (Methuen & Co., London, 1916); "The Survival of Man" (George H. Doran Co., New York, 1920); "The Making of Man" (Hodder & Stoughton, London, 1924); "Ether and Reality" (Hodder & Stoughton, London, 1925); "Why I Believe in Personal Immortality" (Cassell & Co., London, 1928). Other books written by Sir Oliver Lodge include:
Life and Matter, 1912; Science and Religion, 1914; The War and After, 1915; Christopher, 1918; Raymond Revised, 1922; Relativity, 1926; Evolution and Creation, 1926; Science and Human Progress, 1927; Modern Scientific Ideas, 1927; Phantom Walls, 1929; Beyond Physics, 1930; The Reality of a Spiritual World, 1930; Conviction of Survival, 1930; Past Years, 1932; and My Philosophy, 1933

Nuff said

Dr Hyslop
He was one who apparently fought to have the papers on the sitters released. (He failed). A list of his books:

James Hervey Hyslop (1854-1920). Professor of Logic and Ethics, Columbia University, New York. "Borderland of Psychical Research" (Small, Maynard & Co., Boston); "Enigmas of Psychical Research" (Small, Maynard & Co, Boston); "Psychical Research and the Resurrection" (Small, Maynard & Co., Boston, 1908); "Science and a Future Life" (Herbert B. Turner & Co., Boston, 1905); "Contact with the Other World" (Century Co., New York, 1919).

1911 Encyclopedia
(Ain't the Internet great!)

(The typos are in the source and might be artifacts of ocr)

II. The genuineness of trance mediumship can no longer be called in ouestion. The problem for solution is the source of the information. The best observed case is that of Mrs Pipef of Boston; at the outsetof her career, in 1884, she did not differ from the ordinary American trance medium. In 1885 the attention of Prt~fessor William James of Harvard was attracted to her; and for twenty years she remained under the supervision of the Society for Psychical Research. During that period three phases may be distinguished: (1) 1884-1891, trance utterances of a control calling himself Dr Phinuit, a French physician, of whose existence in the body no trace can be found; (2) 1892-1896, automatic writing by a control known as George Pelham, the pseudonym of a young American author; (3) 1896 onwards, supervision by controls purporting to be identical with those associated with Stainton Moses. There is no evidence for regarding Mrs Piper as anything but absolutely honest. Much of the Piper material remains unpublished, partly on account of its intimate character. Many of those to whom the taommunicatjons were made have been convinced that the controls are none other than discarnate spirits. Probably nO absolute proof of identity can be given, though the reading of sealed letters would come near it; these have been left by more than one prominent psychical researcher, but so far the controls who claim to be the writers of them have failed to give their contents, even approximately.
1911 Encyclopedia Online
http://54.1911encyclopedia.org/M/ME/MEDIUM.htm

My point on that one is that 1911 entry reflects the mindset of a different, less critical age. The fake fairy pictures that so fooled Conan Doyle and many others look silly today. We are different, more skeptical people than existed then. Even if all these researchers were perfectly honest, there remains a problem with using the evidence from 100 years ago to convince us today of this 'truth'.

 

[T'ai Chi]

Kopji,
Regarding what you referred to above as the "telepathy debate," the super-psi hypothesis says that a medium need not be picking up information telepathically from someone literally present at the seance. It says that mediums could be accessing information about the deceased that is present in the minds of anyone anywhere.

Mike

Mike,

I am very interested in reading more on the 'super-psi' hypothesis and the other (which I remember seeing, but forget the name of) hypothesis.

Is there a site or other resource you could point me to?

Thanks in advance.

 

[Mike D.]

Mike,

I am very interested in reading more on the 'super-psi' hypothesis and the other (which I remember seeing, but forget the name of) hypothesis.

Is there a site or other resource you could point me to?

Thanks in advance.

T'ai Chi,

Here is a link for you:

http://www.survivalafterdeath.org/articles/braude/superpsi.htm

Mike