Mrs. Piper Mediumship Discussion

CFLarsen said:
Mike D.,

So, we don't know the difference between a medium having "secondary personalities" (not cheating), and a medium inventing spirits (cheating).

You mention the Mrs. Piper was under surveillance etc. during her testing period, and no evidence of her cheating was found. I don't think that anyone would argue that "medium not found cheating" is the same as "medium is real", but it does leave us with very little to work with.

Thanks for your link. I found a very interesting paragraph:



In the biography of Piper, we find this:



Since Mrs. Piper had a fictitious person coming through in 1902, ten years after the French doctor Phinuit showed "himself" to be of, shall we say, lesser spiritual substance, can we surmise that the spiritual abilities of Mrs. Piper is somewhat exaggerated? We are not merely talking about Phinuit being a "secondary personality", but also the "spirits" following him.

This raises very serious doubt about the validity of Mrs. Piper.

Claus,

No serious investigator of Mrs. Piper has ever argued, as far as I know, that she did not have obvious fictitious personalities showing up periodically during the course of her mediumship. The theory of the investigators appears to have been that the unconscious or subsconscious is very creative during trance and that it will often create these false personalities in order to further the whole spiritualist drama of spirit communication. The investigators did not look to these artificial personalities to determine if Piper had genuine paranormal abilities. They were interested in evaluating the accuracy and specificity of information that came through during her trances.

Mike
 
Mike D. said:
...serious investigator...

The theory of the investigators appears to have been that the unconscious or subsconscious is very creative during trance and that it will often create these false personalities in order to further the whole spiritualist drama of spirit communication.

This juxtaposition boggles the mind, I'm afraid.
 
BillHoyt said:

This juxtaposition boggles the mind, I'm afraid.
Good to see that you're nudging the forum towards a greater intellectual and educational reality, Mr. Hoyt. Ever think of practicing what you preach?
 
Mike D,

But, if the investigators did not look to these artificial personalities to determine if Piper had genuine paranormal abilities....how do we know that Mrs. Piper had any paranormal abilities at all?

Isn't the argumentation that, since no trickery was found, she was real?
 
CFLarsen said:
Mike D,

But, if the investigators did not look to these artificial personalities to determine if Piper had genuine paranormal abilities....how do we know that Mrs. Piper had any paranormal abilities at all?

Isn't the argumentation that, since no trickery was found, she was real?

Claus,

The investigators looked to cases in which Piper communicated information which turned out to be extremely unique and specific, at the same time that controls against fraud were in place. So the argument was more than just the fact that no trickery was found.

Mike
 
Mike D. said:
The investigators looked to cases in which Piper communicated information which turned out to be extremely unique and specific, at the same time that controls against fraud were in place. So the argument was more than just the fact that no trickery was found.

Very well: What information did she communicate, that was extremely unique and specific?
 
CFLarsen said:


Very well: What information did she communicate, that was extremely unique and specific?

Claus,

There are numerous examples. For one, see the Sutton transcript. I'm not able this afternoon to go into more detail, but perhaps I can later. But I do think in evaluating a claim like this, it is important ultimately to look at the record of an entire case, including the full transcript and the controls against fraud that were in place, rather than relying on any summary I or anyone else might provide.

Mike
 
Mike D. said:


TLN,

The first scientist to investigate Mrs. Piper was psychologist William James, who famously referred to Piper as his "white crow." But his studies of her are not generally considered as significant as are those conducted by Richard Hodgson and other later investigators. Hodgson was known in his time as an extreme skeptic with a reputation for exposing fraudulent mediums, and he and other investigators instituted certain controls to guard against fraud on Mrs. Piper's part. Here are some of them: she was trailed by private detectives, her mail was opened and read, sitters were brought to her on the spur of the moment and introduced to her under false names, proxy sittings were held, where people were brought to her seances not only with false names but with the intent of sitting on behalf of others who weren't present at the seances. Mrs. Piper was not informed of the identities of the individuals that the proxies were sitting on behalf of. And some investigators, in order to test the genuineness of her trance, engaged in some rather cruel practices such as cutting, burning, and blistering her while she was in trance to see if she would react.

Mrs. Piper was eventually taken to England where she'd never been and presumably knew no one, and several investigators continued to test her and take the above mentioned precautions against fraud.

Many of the tests of Hodgson and others were written up in great detail in the publications of the Society for Psychical Research. These are now available online and you can go to the Society's website for instructions on how to access them.

If you want to read a contemporary overview of Mrs. Piper's mediumship, I recommend Chapter 3 of Stephen Braude's 2003 book, Immortal Remains. Braude is chairman of the Philosophy Department of the University of Maryland, Baltimore County. He quotes excerpts from a few Piper transcripts, the longest excerpt being from the "Sutton transcript."

Mrs. Piper's transcripts are not of equal quality, as she seems to have had her off days, as well as days when she produced high quality information. So to really get a feel for what her mediumship was like, both on good days and bad days, one needs to read fair number of transcripts.

Speaking of the "Sutton transcript," my feeling is, if the Sutton case has been reported accurately, that either hot reading or some kind of anomalous cognition are the only two choices for accounting for the quality of the transcript. I think cold reading can be effectively ruled out. If Mrs. Piper hot read the Suttons (who were brought into the seance room and introduced to her using fake names), then she would have somehow had to have had prior knowledge of intimate facts concerning the family life of the Suttons, and also somehow have gained the knowledge to imitate mannerisms and language patterns of the Sutton's deceased daughter.

The entire Sutton transcript can be found in this paper by Hodgson: Richard Hodgson (1898) "A Further Record of Observations of Certain Phenomena of Trance." Proceedings of the Society for Psychical Research 13: 284-582. The fact that this one paper by one of the investigators of Mrs. Piper is close to 300 pages long is a hint of how voluminous the original source material on her is.

Mrs. Piper is sometimes referred to in the literature as perhaps the most outstanding medium who has been extensively studied to date. So perhaps anyone who wants to critically examine mediumship would be advised to spend a lot of time on her.

I think Piper's case is complex, and what I know of it so far has not led me to conclude that there is survival of death or that Piper was communicating with the dead. At the moment I entertain a modest belief that she may well have exhibited at times some sort of anomalous cognition that has not been adequately explained. But, of course, that belief could change as I learn more about her. And given the quantity of original source information that is available about her, I certainly have more to learn.

Mike

I've just read about Mrs Piper in Irwin's "Introduction to parapsychology". I think there's a lot of suggestive evidence for anomalous cognition. Of course the question of whether she is communicating with deceased persons is a harder issue to judge. There's some stuff about the cross correspondances later on in the book though.
 
CFLarsen said:
Mike D. ,

Good. Let's look at the Sutton transcript. Got it handy?

Claus,

I assume you mean that it should be posted here and we'll discuss it. I'm willing to comment on it and discuss it with you if someone else will take the time to post it. I gave the reference to the location of the entire transcript in my post to TLN above. And if you have Braude's Immortal Remains. there is an excerpt from it in Chapter 3.

Mike
 
Mike D. said:
I assume you mean that it should be posted here and we'll discuss it.

Yes.

Mike D. said:
I'm willing to comment on it and discuss it with you if someone else will take the time to post it. I gave the reference to the location of the entire transcript in my post to TLN above.

This link: http://www.survivalafterdeath.org/articles/heywood/piper.htm ?

There is no reference to the transcript there. Am I missing something?

Mike D. said:
And if you have Braude's Immortal Remains. there is an excerpt from it in Chapter 3.

I don't. Let's look at the whole transcript instead.
 
Interesting Ian said:


I've just read about Mrs Piper in Irwin's "Introduction to parapsychology". I think there's a lot of suggestive evidence for anomalous cognition. Of course the question of whether she is communicating with deceased persons is a harder issue to judge. There's some stuff about the cross correspondances later on in the book though.

Ian,

Mrs. Piper apparently believed that she had genuine psychic abilities, but one time in an interview she herself said she didn't really know whether she was really communicating with the dead or simply picking up information by means of telepathy and dramatizing it during her trances. And of course, the medium Eileen Garrett is well known for being skeptical that she (Garrett) was really communicating with the dead, in addition to believing that her controls were most likely secondary personalities.

Mike
 
CFLarsen said:


Yes.



This link: http://www.survivalafterdeath.org/articles/heywood/piper.htm ?

There is no reference to the transcript there. Am I missing something?



I don't. Let's look at the whole transcript instead.

Claus,

Sorry, I should have been more specific. The SPR has on their website instructions on how to access their publications online. And here is the specific reference from my post to TLN:

"The entire Sutton transcript can be found in this paper by Hodgson: Richard Hodgson (1898) "A Further Record of Observations of Certain Phenomena of Trance." Proceedings of the Society for Psychical Research 13: 284-582. The fact that this one paper by one of the investigators of Mrs. Piper is close to 300 pages long is a hint of how voluminous the original source material on her is."

Mike
 
Mike D. said:
Sorry, I should have been more specific. The SPR has on their website instructions on how to access their publications online.

They require membership, $78. Sorry, that's a bit much to pay for a transcript of someone not proven to be a real medium.
 
CFLarsen said:


They require membership, $78. Sorry, that's a bit much to pay for a transcript of someone not proven to be a real medium.

Well, at least the references are posted for anyone who wants to check these things out on their own. Some libraries have a full run of the SPR publications.
 
Mike D. said:
Well, at least the references are posted for anyone who wants to check these things out on their own. Some libraries have a full run of the SPR publications.

Not in Denmark, they don't. :)
 
Mike,

I have the Braude book here. Do you think its of any value to post that excerpt? I'm not sure myself.

After all, I asked a question (which only ersby ever addressed). TLN responded by asking me who I thought was a medium worth considering and I said "Mrs. Piper".

When I answered TLN, I wasn't offering to prepare a thorough case of my own on Piper's behalf. At some point I think those who are interested--and have resources presented to them--should put enough of their own effort into reading and forming an opinion, then arguing it out.

At this poijnt, I'm not sure how much work to put into typing up the Braude excerpt--especially since
  • (1) its off topic anyway;
  • (2) you've already provided -several- links and several references they could read to learn much more about her than anything we could post here, in this format;
  • (3) the full transcripts are too long to post here and partial ones will be dismissed as "not showing the full picture" and
  • (4) I kind of think that its enough to point someone in the right direction and, if they're interested enough to do some research into it of their own, then discuss it further at that point.

I'm willing to post from Braude, but at this point, I'm not sure what value it would have.
 
Clancie,

I'm a little fuzzy on why you think partial transcripts are not worth it. On TVTalkshows, they did not seem a problem, but I can deduct from your post that you seem to have changed your mind.

At any rate, we agree: Partial transcripts are worthless. We also have to be able to - somehow - verify that the full transcripts are correct. We can do this with JE's readings from Crossing Over. How do you suggest we do this with Piper's transcripts? Are there any recordings of any kind of any of her readings?
 
Clancie said:
Mike,

I have the Braude book here. Do you think its of any value to post that excerpt? I'm not sure myself.

After all, I asked a question (which only ersby ever addressed). TLN responded by asking me who I thought was a medium worth considering and I said "Mrs. Piper".

When I answered TLN, I wasn't offering to prepare a thorough case of my own on Piper's behalf. At some point I think those who are interested--and have resources presented to them--should put enough of their own effort into reading and forming an opinion, then arguing it out.

At this poijnt, I'm not sure how much work to put into typing up the Braude excerpt--especially since
  • (1) its off topic anyway;
  • (2) you've already provided -several- links and several references they could read to learn much more about her than anything we could post here, in this format;
  • (3) the full transcripts are too long to post here and partial ones will be dismissed as "not showing the full picture" and
  • (4) I kind of think that its enough to point someone in the right direction and, if they're interested enough to do some research into it of their own, then discuss it further at that point.

I'm willing to post from Braude, but at this point, I'm not sure what value it would have.

Clancie,

Well, I think some here might find excerpts of interest, but Claus has just expressed his preference to see the full transcript, and I suspect that some others might feel that way as well. Personally, I feel that typing in the excerpts from Braude's book would take more time than I'd be willing to devote to it, but if you should feel like doing it, as I said, I think some here might find the excerpts of interest.

Mike
 
Clancie said:
Mike,

I have the Braude book here. Do you think its of any value to post that excerpt? I'm not sure myself.

After all, I asked a question (which only ersby ever addressed). TLN responded by asking me who I thought was a medium worth considering and I said "Mrs. Piper".

...snip...

I didn't think that what I asked for i.e. "I was hoping someone like you who knew her work etc. could quickly point to the examples you thought compelling for the “pro” case." would be onerous, after all you must know which and what (and why) material meets your criteria of "special hits" and "good demos"?

I've already stated that pre-internet days I'd read about Mrs Piper and wasn't impressed - I was hoping for some help to find out what and where in the material now available are "special hits" and so on from someone on the "pro" mediumship side of the debate.

Mike said just one of the reports by one of the one of the investigators is over 300 pages! And it appears that to get more then the abstract I'm going to have to shell out considerable money.

Since you don’t want to help me out, forget I asked for some help.
 

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