Most irritating theological argument ever

[Interesting Ian]

Those definately rank right up there. Though I have a worse one than "You can't see love", I have honestly heard people say "you can't see air, either!".

AIR!!!

Presumably this was in response to an argument that God doesn't exist since we cannot see a God.

Such idiocy between both people in this exchange is quite breathtaking.

First of all one presumes that the atheist meant that we cannot detect God through any of our 5 senses, which one can liberally interpret to mean either direct or indirect observations. Thus any putative God does not play any fruitful role in our scientific theories in the world.

But this is just completely irrelevant. For a kick off it essentially begs the question by presupposing the correctness of materialism and also that all exists can be encompassed by a scientific description of the world. This begs the question because believers will not generally be materialists. Thus simply asserting the tenets of materialism under the guise of an argument is scarcely going to convince people. Or at least it bloody well shouldn't!

But in any case, even if believers were materialists it would still be irrelevant because it's not just God's consciousness we can't see, but all consciousnesses whatsoever! But since from the perspective of each person they know that at least that they exist, and they cannot see their own consciousness, it follows that the fact we cannot see God's consciousness is wholly irrelevant. Of course one might argue that by observing the appropriate physical activity in ones brain, one thereby "sees" consciousness. But even if this were so one could argue that by looking at the activity of the Universe as a whole one is thereby seeing God.

And the response by the believer that you cannot see air is of course wholly irrelevant. The believer doesn't seem to understand that the atheist is presupposing the materialist metaphysic! Anyway, it is clear that air does play a fruitful role as an existent in our scientific theories describing the world.

 

[Interesting Ian]

That is odd thinking. I don't believe in a god, yet I believe you exist because you are real. People aren't just minds - people are also toenails.

I disagree. And I suspect many theists would disagree also.

 

[volant]

"So you believe you are an accident?"
"You are not truly happy."
"Why do even get out of bed in the morning, when you believe your life has no meaning?"

 

[Whomp]

There is absolutely nothing in the entire history or body of science to remotely suggest that a God doesn't exist. Arguably the converse. What is it about science and its history I should look up which is suggestful there is no God?

Hmmm, science has managed to explain all of the wonders it has uncovered so far without the use of god. There isn't an accepted scientific theory, explaination, or mathmatic equation that falls apart if god does not exist.
All of what we know and understand about the world around us has been explained without god.
So... science conversely suggests god exists?

And incidentally, you appear to conflate metaphysical explanations with scientific ones.

(shakes head) um ... what?

In short it would seem you have no reasons nor evidence to support your beliefs. You are at liberty of course try to persuade me otherwise.

I do not believe god exists because there is no reason for me to believe otherwise. (shrug)

 

[Abdul Alhazred]

Re: Please don't hit me

"If god does not exist, then life is meaningless.
But life has meaning
Therefore god exists"

Unfortunately you can't counter "but life is meaningless, therefore god doesn't exist" because that's not a valid inference. But you can confound the person making the argument by accepting the meaninglessness of life, or asking them to prove that life has meaning - equally as difficult as demonstrating the existence of god, I guess.

Yeah, it's annoying.

Or you could ask Cthulhu to devour them.

My buddy who you mentioned will straighten everybody out once he finishes his breakfast of primitive villagers who don't propitiate him quickly enough, and visits me in Chicago.

But I have to tell you that long before he bothers with folks who reason stupidly about religion he's going to devour folks who misuse their laundry room privileges.

Then he's going to redirect his attention to folks who talk too loud in theaters.

Folks who fail to rebuke their toddlers who mess with merchandise in stores are also high on his list.

In fact, he kind of likes religious stupids. Their clulessness before being devoured renders the looks on their faces so much more piquant.

But that's dessert!

Examine how you live, pal!

 

[triadboy]

I disagree. And I suspect many theists would disagree also.

So to a theist - what you are is the 'feeling' you have inside the shell of your body? What happens when you die and your brain dissolves - along with all of your memories?

 

[Yahweh]

Re: Re: Most irritating theological argument ever

I think it is an excellent convincing sentiment. It is not an argument though, and it should be life would have no purpose rather than saying life is meaningless.

I'm forced to disagree. I think "You're life would have no meaning" is a terrible arguement (or whatever you feel like calling it). It insists that life is without meaning or purpose unless you are serving god, it's not an arguement or even a conditional statement, it is a gross misunderstanding of what atheism is.

And the obvious answer to that statement is: My life has meaning and purpose, unfortunately it's not to serve your god, I'd much rather invest my time educating humanity or contributing in any positive way possible to the people around me.

And honestly, I dont think you can find a single atheist who sits in his bed all day being depressed because he doesnt have a god to give his life "purpose".

Edited: Changed one word, I didnt think it looked right...

 

[Interesting Ian]

Re: Re: Re: Most irritating theological argument ever

I'm forced to disagree. I think "You're[sic] life would have no meaning" is a terrible arguement[sic] (or whatever you feel like calling it). It insists that life is without meaning or purpose unless you are serving another, it's not an arguement[sic] or even a conditional statement, it is a gross misunderstanding of what atheism is.

Don't be absurd. Simply because one believes a "God" exists does not mean that one is serving anyone. I certainly don't for a kick off.

And the obvious answer to that statement is: My life has meaning and purpose, unfortunately it's not to serve your god, I'd much rather invest my time educating humanity or contributing in any positive way possible to the people around me.

And honestly, I dont think you can find a single atheist who sits in his bed all day being depressed because he doesnt have a god to give his life "purpose".

Never said otherwise.

 

[billydkid]

I think...

Another happy atheist here...

My life has more meaning than ever, now that I'm not worried about some nasty God having a temper tantrum and drowning everybody..

That crap about the rainbow, was something I was never really sure about, even when I was holding out on some of the other stuff...

I think people are afraid - terrified - to take the leap into the abyss. But if they would take they would realize there really is no abyss at all. It took me a long time to overcome the God idea - from the age of 12 until I was around 30 or 35. I tried for a long time to make the God idea make sense, but never could. The letting go was gradual process, but the first steps, the first "dare to thinks" felt like blasphemy (like the first times you swear when you are a kid), but then it got easier. It is, in a sense, a leap of faith to become a free thinker - you have to have faith in your own judgement and faith you are competent to determine what is real and what is not.

 

[uruk]

Don't be absurd. Simply because one believes a "God" exists does not mean that one is serving anyone. I certainly don't for a kick off.

So what view of god do you have? Is it based on any established religion or is it pieced together from the various religions, or is it a view that you came to understand by yourself?

If the latter is true then why do you belive that your view is more correct than others? Any evidence to support it?

 

[Psydox]

I go by the "what if" rule in this situation.

"What if" there is a God ?

"What if" there isn't a God ?

Give this "what if" rule a try by taking the above questions and use a logical reasoning process to work out the pros and cons of each. Granted you will have to take into consideration the associated ideas of each question/concept despite your current beliefs.


As for me, I decided that in the event there was NOT a God then what would it hurt to believe there IS a God....just seems to be the logical thing to me considering the alternative.


PS- keep in mind that science has not stopped yet and makes new discoveries all the time. What if......

 

[Yahweh]

I go by the "what if" rule in this situation.

"What if" there is a God ?

"What if" there isn't a God ?

Give this "what if" rule a try by taking the above questions and use a logical reasoning process to work out the pros and cons of each. Granted you will have to take into consideration the associated ideas of each question/concept despite your current beliefs.

Well, let's flip that "what if" scenario around...

What if the bible is incomplete?

What if the bible is inaccurate?

What if Wiccan is the right religion?

What if there is no god?

What if God had to die to create the universe?

As for me, I decided that in the event there was NOT a God then what would it hurt to believe there IS a God....just seems to be the logical thing to me considering the alternative.

I would disagree.

I am absolutely incapable of accepting god's existence anymore than I can accept other religious or paranormal claims that exist outside scientific explanation, I cannot accept faith as any means of reasoning. "What if faith in Jesus Christ is the only way into Heaven", well then I wasnt really given much of a chance seeing as how god deliberately designed me to be incapable of believing in him.

"You're going to hell if you dont believe in god", I cant be scared into belief in God.

"If you have faith in god, you get to spend the rest of eternity in the blissful love of god", I cant be bribed into belief either.

And no, Pascal's Wager is not the logical alternative. Keep in mind, "logic" is not a set of laws that govern human behavior, and Pascals Wager isnt reasoning that will show people "the light".

PS- keep in mind that science has not stopped yet and makes new discoveries all the time. What if......

What if I told people I was son of God?

What if people didnt believe me?

What if...

"You've just got to have faith, then you will BELIEVE..."

Edited to correct spelling errors

 

[Abdul Alhazred]

And no, Pascal's Wadger is not the logical alternative. Keep in mind, "logic" is not a set of laws that govern human behavior, and Pascals Wadger isnt reasoning that will show people "the light".

Pascal's wager, in context, isn't as stupid as it sounds.

Pascal starts out by refuting polytheism, Judaism, and Islam, leaving only the alternatives of "philosophy" and Christianity.

OK that doesn't cover all bases and some of the refutation arguments are laughable, but Pascal did think it through better than a fundie.

 

[Yahzi]

IAs for me, I decided that in the event there was NOT a God then what would it hurt to believe there IS a God

Four aircraft, two buildings, and 3,000 lives later, people can still ask what harm could come of beleiving in things that aren't true.

Are you naive, ignorant, retarded, or just mind-numbingly self-centered?

 

[Psydox]

Are you naive, ignorant, retarded, or just mind-numbingly self-centered?

....as per Yahzi


YES!! enjoy

 

[Yahweh]

OK that doesn't cover all bases and some of the refutation arguments are laughable, but Pascal did think it through better than a fundie.

While Pascal did think it through better, and his Philosophy does make plenty of sense, however its very hard to "make" yourself believe.

Oh well, I'll take the George Carlin approach, I'll worship the sun and pray to Joe Pesci.

 

[Abdul Alhazred]

Four aircraft, two buildings, and 3,000 lives later, people can still ask what harm could come of believing in things that aren't true.

Are you naive, ignorant, retarded, or just mind-numbingly self-centered?

I think you're being unfair.

When it comes to belief in The Big Guy who loves us but treats us like ◊◊◊◊, otherwise known as the Gaseous Vertebrate, some false beliefs are quite clearly more harmful than others, though none are completely harmless.

Exterminating infidels is rarely part of the deal, at least among American types.

 

[Abdul Alhazred]

While Pascal did think it through better, and his Philosophy does make plenty of sense, however its very hard to "make" yourself believe.

Quite so. Whoever says to him/herself "The trouble with me is I need to be more delusional."!?

 

[Ruby]

Recently, I have encountered a particular argument in favor of God several times, once on this board, a couple of times away from it. This argument is the one that says, at its core, "God must exist because life would be meaningless if he didn't". I have also seen this argument used to justify why several other superstitions must be true.

I am guilty of saying such a thing...in the past. Now I have found that the more I have pushed "God" out of my life, the more real my life becomes. Life has far much more meaning to me now.

However, having been on the other side, I am tolerant and patient with those who still think life has no meaning without God. I will never convince them I am happy not worshipping God if I rail at them!

 

[Psydox]

I wouldn't call it unfair as much as I would call it limited. Yahzi tends to maintain his ideas and opinions in terms of absolutes. As a result he likely jumps to conclusions quite frequently when in debate on issues that are not in agreement with his own or based on an all or nothing type of reasoning.

For the most part, I was goofing around when I made the post. Yes I do believe that there is a God. Does it mean I follow a Church ? Nah but I'd be willing to bet that Yahzi thinks so because it falls into that absolute thinking style of his. He got all bent out of shape over a comment that I referrred to myself only and any attempt he could have made to convince me to think otherwise was FUBARED by his touching display of those Bill and Ted "Be excellent to each other" kind of qualities he has. HA!! what a genius