Mosques are against the First Amendment...

gnome said:
As far as church bells go... well, nothing's an easy decision. Somehow ringing bells don't seem as intrusive to me as verbal announcements... however, unless a fair method of legally distinguishing between them can be reached (any proposals?) they would have to abide by whatever noise level restrictions apply to the mosques (or non-religious venues wanting to announce an event).
For what it's worth, the typical municipal noise ordinance in the United States carves out an express exception (worded differently in different jurisdictions) for chimes, bells or carillons pealed to mark the passage of time or in connection with religious services or public holidays. Indeed, some noise ordinances have a "grandfather clause" exempting all chimes, bells or carillons in existence at the time the ordinance was passed.

pgwenthold said:
The government allowing the mosque calls to prayer is not government action, it is inaction. Unless they are making an exception for the mosque (which I would not support), then they are not really doing anything. They aren't doing something, that being restricting the speech.

Essentially, the government has decided to not act against the mosque. It is the objectors who want the government to act in this case, not the mosque.
I infer from the article Gestahl linked that the proposed call to prayer over loudspeakers would violate the provisions of the ordinance currently in effect in the town in question, and what the municipal authorities are contemplating is the passage of a new ordinance (or the granting of a variance to the existing one) specifically in order to permit the local mosques to use loudspeakers.

Accordingly, the adoption of the special ordinance (or variance) would constitute the "government action" necessary to proceed with an First Amendment challenge (which would then have to be subjected to the 3-pronged Establishment Clause analysis I summarized earlier).

I suspect that restricting speech (under the Free Speech Clause of the First Amendment) would not really be the focus of the matter; it would be the promotion of religion (under the Establishment Clause).

Hopefully it's a bit clearer now why I suggested that some of the same considerations would be relevant in the airport case and the mosque case: for one thing, both would involve some kind of analysis of the extent to which the different loudspeaker announcements (regardless of whether government's role consisted in loaning the airport PA time, or in passing a special ordinance for the mosques) had the primary effect of advancing religion.
pgwenthold said:
A quick question about chapels: who pays for the space? Is it government granted? Or is it leased space, like with the restaurants and shops? That would make a big difference in the interpretation, and I don't know the answer.
I don't know what the usual arrangement is, perhaps it varies widely from airport to airport. However, I'm happy to relate the specific facts from the leading court case I know of on this subject, Hawley v. City of Cleveland, 24 F. 3d 814 (6th Cir. 1994).

In that case, the City of Cleveland, pursuant to an authorizing ordinance, entered into an agreement with the Catholic Diocese of Cleveland for the use of space in the terminal of Cleveland Hopkins International Airport for the operation of a chapel. As with certain other non-profit entities operating at the airport (e.g. Travelers Aid), the diocese got the space almost rent-free (unlike commercial concessions like shops and restaurants). The diocese fixed up the space at its own expense. By agreement with the city, the diocese made the chapel available to all other interested religious groups (and, interestingly, even paid to make prayer cards from a multitude of religions available to the public).

The plaintiffs raised four Establishment Clause arguments on appeal: that (1) the Catholic chapel had the effect of impermissibly advancing the Catholic religion; (2) the lease agreement was unconstitutional because its purpose of providing religious services on public property overshadowed any secular purpose; (3) the lease reflected an unconstitutional joint partnership between church and state; and (4) the failure of the city to charge the diocese fair market rent constituted an impermissible aid to religion. They lost on all four counts.

I note in passing, purely out of anecdotal interest, that this was the same court that could ultimately hear the Michigan mosque case (as Ohio and Michigan are both located in the Sixth Circuit).
 
A lot of fuss

Look at this. It is a hell of a lot of fuss so that this religion can shout its prayer announcement to the wind while other religions ring bells; who knows what the Church of Satan or Scientology are going to start shouting in the future.

By the way, there was the mention in this thread that very few churches have bells anymore. That may be true, but in my experience they have replaced the bells with an eletronic bell complete with super decibel louspeaker system and programmable hymns for the holidays.

Which one is more offensive if you are sleeping a half a block away?

I say they are equally a problem. Sure they are subject to existing noise laws but that is little help. Being a musician with lots of equipment, believe me I could be a royal nuisance to my neighbors and still be within the law.

Why can't religions just quietly worship and be good neighbors. Like I do for my neighbors. Sure, I could turn it up and I would like to. And I would love for everyone to hear me because I am so good. The message is good so why not. It's good music so why not.

Why do the religious foist their religion on others without courtesy. Is it because they are righteous?

Bentspoon
 

Back
Top Bottom